Paul Konrardy:
[0:16] Well, welcome back to Monsters of Curiosity. Glad you joined us again.
Paul Konrardy:
[0:21] Well, I'm Paul, and I'm here with Jen and Susan. And what are we talking about today? I honestly do not know.
Jenny Evans:
[0:32] Ooh, surprise.
Paul Konrardy:
[0:34] It's a big surprise.
Jenny Evans:
[0:35] This topic is, when we experience the fear of change, is that a sign that we should stop? Or is it a clue that we should actually move forward? You know, because there hasn't been any change in the last few months, few years.
Paul Konrardy:
[1:03] So boring.
Jenny Evans:
[1:04] Yeah.
Susan Evans:
[1:06] We've hit the end of anything interesting. Every day is the same. I wake up wishing something would happen in the world that would pique my curiosity, anger, or harken back to days of I feel good about the world.
Jenny Evans:
[1:24] Yeah it's definitely piqued my um creativity like i i wasn't i'm not creative enough to even think that what we've been through uh was even possible and it
Jenny Evans:
[1:37] makes me wonder like wow moving forward what else yeah.
Susan Evans:
[1:42] I didn't think this would happen yeah
Paul Konrardy:
[1:44] The central question though is is is the fear of change am I understanding that correctly
Jenny Evans:
[1:51] Yes and what is so what is that fear telling you you should do um, And I think, you know, like, there's a lot of different ways to approach this question of just in our own personal lives. If you are a business owner, if you're an entrepreneur, if you are a leader. I mean, I think this is something that everybody deals with on a daily basis. And I think what's fascinating to me is with my background really being a lot of understanding the chemistry and the biology of the brain and body, I'm really excited to actually share a different perspective or explanation on what's happening that's creating that fear that I think a lot of people don't know. But I'm also interested, from both of you, you've been around the blocks as business owners, as working for other people. You've had a lot of change in your life and just your experience with all of those events.
Paul Konrardy:
[3:08] I think I just got told I was old, but I'm okay with that.
Jenny Evans:
[3:13] We're wise and experienced.
Susan Evans:
[3:15] Paul.
Paul Konrardy:
[3:15] I was trying to give myself a quick facelift there, but that doesn't really work, does it? I'm fascinated by the fear part of change in that when people don't embrace change because it has become so, that is, as we were joking, it is our reality. And it's only seems like the 24-hour news cycle has just shrunk that. So I think all of our perceptions of change, it's everywhere. And it's overwhelming. But I think it's the fear part of it that I find fascinating.
Susan Evans:
[3:47] Mm-hmm. Well, I think for me, fear... Fear is either you look at it and say, it's sort of like the opposite of a gut instinct where you're like, yeah, I'm going to go for it. Fear is my head saying, there's something going on here. What is it? And look at it. And is it fear of if this blows up, I'm going to lose everything? Or is it fear of, because that's kind of a fear of I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen. and I'm going to take a leap of faith or I'm not. And so it's kind of like looking at it that way. Or is it fear because of experience that this didn't work last time? Is this a fool me once, fool me twice situation? You know, where you're like, okay, this, I've seen this. When people say I've seen this movie before, it's like that thing where it's like I have a fear. It's like a wisdom of fear, if you will. Where you're like, this makes me nervous because I've seen it before. And so am I self-protecting because I don't want to do that? And then that's where I get into the weeds of, am I doing this because I'm insecure or the change is?
Susan Evans:
[5:13] Is exciting. It's sort of like nerves where you're like, oh, I'm not scared. It's my body getting excited. It's like, okay, if my body's excited, then I got to do it. But that's where I have to divide it out going, I have no idea what's going to happen. I'm just going to do it because we always used to say this. It's not like we can't stop or figure something out because we're all smart but the thing that always gets me and i do it more often than i should is doing something several times even though i know it didn't work before because i'm trying to do it a different way and it's like no it doesn't work well
Paul Konrardy:
[5:51] Isn't that and that's insanity that's definition of insanity but i think there's you know jen i'm excited to hear what you have to say about it because i think when it comes to change you know when change is in our face our body and mind work differently because it's something potentially new or novel. But then when you layer the fear factor onto it, it's a different part of your brain that's working than just your immediate reaction to what's in front of you.
Jenny Evans:
[6:22] Yeah. So there's a very primitive part of our brain that developed first, which is basically our fight or flight response. It's your amygdala, which is your emotions. And from a protective perspective, your amygdala is really, it's designed to always assume the worst, to be looking for problems for scanning, because it's there to protect you. And then you've got the reactive part of your brain, which is just your fight or flight response. So amygdala.
Jenny Evans:
[6:59] This part of your brain wants to create safety and security and predictability. This is the part of your brain that just loves habit and routine. And it wasn't until later, as the brain continued to develop, that the neocortex grew on top, like the rational, logical part of our brain. And so when anything in our environment changes, it immediately triggers that primitive part of your brain. I like to just call him Sneaky Pete. And his first instinct and response is fear, self-doubt, protection, catastrophize, come up with 8 million ways to Sunday about how bad this could be, how it's all not going to play out. And our logical, rational brain is really sort of nowhere to be found. And so... Susan, I think what you were, what really ties into that is that when we experience that change, we have a big physical, mental, emotional response.
Jenny Evans:
[8:12] Understanding that that is the brain and body's first natural response and to embrace that with a sense of curiosity of oh yeah this is my brain just trying to protect me and to keep me safe But I need to actually pay attention to this and start asking some questions to figure out, is this a primitive response or is this accurate information that I should use to make a decision? More often than not it's just that primitive immediate response of like running around with your hands over your head oh my god um and then thinking like that's data and information that's simply a biological response i.
Susan Evans:
[9:10] Read that as our brains are holding us back every day because they're not embracing the curiosity and opportunity but no don't go there it's a dark room
Jenny Evans:
[9:22] But I think that's why it's such a struggle because that part of the brain is hardwired to react that way. And then we've got the advanced part of the brain that is more about logic and reasoning and curiosity. I mean, it's like it's the battle of the brains, which is why change is so hard for every person. It's baked in.
Susan Evans:
[9:50] Yep.
Paul Konrardy:
[9:51] Yet, we meet people who embrace change as the only way they can get through the day, because they're bored otherwise. It's almost like they need some brain juice to squirt out to get them somewhat normal. I think there's some kind of addictive quality to change that some people thrive on. But that could be, you know, who knows. I look at that as maybe they just don't have enough experience with calm that they've just kind of become adrenaline junkies. That's a personality type that I think is out there. So they run to the change versus having calm.
Jenny Evans:
[10:38] Yeah and so they're.
Paul Konrardy:
[10:41] Not afraid of it they just run to it so yeah they can't wait
Jenny Evans:
[10:44] It is adrenaline adrenaline is the stress response and adrenaline heightens emotions it heightens your experiences and that can be a very addictive state in that you don't really feel alive unless that adrenaline or stress response has been triggered. And yeah, some people really love that sensation. They find it energizing, you know, whereas other people are like, I don't want to experience that at all, ever. No, thank you.
Paul Konrardy:
[11:24] Yeah, there's a difference between feeling alive and feeling terrified.
Jenny Evans:
[11:30] Dread.
Susan Evans:
[11:32] That's why we have movies. Do you think with experience, and by experience, I mean going through life longer than 23 or 25 kind of thing. So like when you get in your 30s, 40s, 50s and older, do you think you figure out the difference and how to temper that? Where it's like, I knew what I know now is different than what I knew then. I mean, would you go back in time and say now that it's sort of like when Peggy Sue got married or something where she goes back in time and, you know, it's like, I know a lot now and I would have done it differently now that I know this. Do you guys have any of those experiences where you're like, in a business sense, because I'm not going to go into my college dating life, okay? I mean, in a business sense, it's like things that you look back on going, either I should have done it, but I was too scared to or nervous to, or thank God I did that because my fear said something else. Do you guys have any of those?
Paul Konrardy:
[12:43] Sometimes yeah i can give you a big example of one just uh yesterday no day before yesterday um i think i mentioned that we're trying to purchase a property and the broker came back with a counter to our counter to our counter you know how many back time you know whatever and the last one that we got from the seller i was so mad i just got completely mad even though i've been through this how many times in my life i mean purchasing property is not something a lot of people do often but i've done it enough to know that you don't let your emotions get into this picture but it pisses me off so much that i'm like okay we're done done drawing the line we're done and it in hindsight it was i didn't know why that i got such an emotional response to it when it was just a fricking business decision and it turns into a different thing altogether. Um, but I know from my,
Paul Konrardy:
[13:46] My own experience that i shouldn't have done that but i did and so i think that i might think part of my brain that was reptilian felt threatened and i and i reacted versus just being higher level and think about this as a change i mean negotiations are kind of that battle that you get to and it gets down to or back and forth or potentially can unless you stay out of the emotions of it And I walked into that whole situation going, I'm not going to let things get under my skin. I'm not going to do it. And yet I did it. So I think that falls into that category of is there something that happens that you kind of knew better? You still did it. And in that case, I did. I knew better. I knew from my experience that this is how it should go. And I didn't follow my own wisdom to go through that. Stupid. Oh, gosh, I look up the next day going, what the hell's wrong with me?
Susan Evans:
[14:48] That's the 24-hour rule.
Jenny Evans:
[14:50] Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[14:52] It is.
Jenny Evans:
[14:53] Well, when you say it's just a business decision, like, again, that's our two brains. You know, that's your logic brain just being like, duh, this is just numbers. It's just business. It's nothing personal. It's nothing to get emotional about. But that primitive part of your brain, it never turns off. You know, any sense of threat. of like oh are you are you trying to take advantage of me or like a home purchase that's a major financial like talk about fear that comes with money and finances like that is so emotionally triggering for a lot of people that it completely makes sense that you would have that emotional reaction even though you don't want to like you always find yourself like susan you're like here Here we are again. I know this, but biology will always play a part.
Susan Evans:
[15:49] Mm-hmm. And I think what's interesting too, it's like, it's the change can be exciting, but it doesn't mean there aren't going to be those moments in there that are triggering or fearful that make you go, I'm going to walk away. It's that fight or flight where it's like, I hate you and your ass face. I'm out of here. You know, it's like when you know, that's not the end result, but But if you don't blow off a little bit of that steam in the middle, that you still want to move forward with this. I mean, it's a change, but the fear is it could go wrong. It could go right. It's like, which one is it going to be? And the triggers going right or going wrong depend on what you've been through before. And I think it's that stop and pause and go, I got to recognize this. This is me being me, which is not helpful at this moment. And it's like, I am sabotaging myself here. Which I think in business, I did work.
Susan Evans:
[17:00] Unfortunately, I never did it on things that didn't make a difference. It was always, ah, it's a big decision. It's going to change a lot of things.
Susan Evans:
[17:08] And I didn't do that well. Yeah. It's like, you know, why not just, oh, I didn't hand in the time sheet. You know, it was like things change that we did within the company was always for the betterment of the system, of the people, of their happiness. Everything was driven towards, are you happy here? I can make change under that. And that's easy. But when it came to how I'm going to run this thing and the people that we had to deal with on the outside, I found myself going, how am I going to handle this? What am I going to do? We did so much crisis work. And in crisis work, the change is happening at such a rapid pace that people's heads explode, basically, where they're like, oh, God, this just happened. Somebody got arrested. or in violent situations. It's like the change is so astronomical that it throws everything out the window in 20 seconds. And how you come back from that and what you do with that is just, it's what's always interesting is that we'd walk into the room, talk with people and immediately we can tell
Susan Evans:
[18:09] Who is going to be there with their logical brain and who is going to be there with their, I got nothing and I'm freaking out brain and how we had to handle those people so we could get, so we could move everything forward. But what's that, now that I'm saying that out loud, what's interesting is, and I think this is why we all have best friends and board of directors and all that sort of thing, is that when you're in the change and you're in that fear of, do I stop or move forward? You got nothing. So I'm going to phone a friend and go, what the hell? I mean, which is why you have those people on the outside helping you through if you have a chance to say, I got to bounce this off of you because I'm at a change moment here and I got nothing because I want to run and I want to stay and I want to move forward and I want to pretend it never happened. So it's like I am a mystery to myself right now. So it's like, how do I do this?
Paul Konrardy:
[19:05] There's a couple of things that come from what you just said in my head. Is there an exponential quality to this where if the change is of a magnitude of X, does that mean your fear or your responses are going to be of the same magnitude? Or is it like, as you mentioned, Susan, you walked in, there was a crisis going on. It could have been at an extreme level. Some people really on their game. Some people aren't. Is this an exponential quality of their own personal experience or just how their brain works and how their brain has been changed because they've had those experiences before from experience or they just have a different temperament?
Susan Evans:
[19:52] I think it's all of the above.
Paul Konrardy:
[19:54] Is there something to that, Jen? I mean, I think that brain structure has a lot to do with what we've experienced before. But I also think there's some personality types that can benefit.
Susan Evans:
[20:06] Yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[20:06] I think like the answer to every question is always yes and. You know, that nature versus nurture debate, it's both of those things. And also, I think how we deal with change and the resulting stress response is so individualized. What might be a trigger for me, Susan, you would just be like, what are you even talking about? That's not a big deal. You know, so it's always so relative and individualized. And one of the things that.
Jenny Evans:
[20:44] We've been talking about without explicitly talking about it is there's the change that happens to us where we feel like we don't have much control, which feels a little bit different than the change that we want to instigate for ourselves. So Susan talking about like, I want to make sure that I'm creating a work environment that's conducive for everybody. Like you can see the benefit of the change to everybody. You're doing this of your own volition versus, you know, a client who's had a crisis, like that's all so reactionary versus creating proactive change. So it, that also plays a huge role. And we all have like good changes in our lives of like, you get married, you, you have a baby. Anybody could say like, by and large, Those are good things that happen, but those are also big changes that also create stress that then sneaky Pete and advanced brain are both in there trying to do their thing. And it makes for a lot of confusion and discomfort.
Susan Evans:
[21:53] Yeah. And that's really true. Change is good, bad. But I think the good change is when you get nervous. I read something where it says when you're really nervous, it's just your whole body and your whole psyche getting excited for what's about to happen because it's a good thing no matter what. You know, it's like, I think when you get older, you get to the point where you're like,
Susan Evans:
[22:13] I've handled a lot. I can do this too. Yeah. It's like, nothing is terrible is going to happen that we control in our lives. I can't speak for those in power. So it's like, but I think when we can control as much as we can, even when there are things that happen to us, especially in business, because there was always something that, that there were two days where I timed it because I kept thinking I'm going insane, or I would time how often people would coming to the office and it was about every seven minutes because something was happening. And I thought, and a CEO, a CMO that I worked with is really good advice. So I said, God, this is happening all the time and I can't get any work done. And she said, your people coming in every seven minutes is your job. That is your job. That is not any, and I was like, oh. And so I think when change happens, what I found was I got to get rid of the old way of thinking because you kind of graduated to something different go oh now here's how we look at it because if you stay at the same place you yourself are never going to change and so i was like well i see okay got it and so there were good things where it's like level up or level sideways or just with it you
Susan Evans:
[23:32] Which also then helped on the flip side when something terrible happened or something unexpected where you're like, it happened, but I didn't want it to happen. So now, new change, how do we do it? How do we make it better, different something? Because it won't be the same.
Paul Konrardy:
[23:47] Can somebody read the question again? Because I want to make sure we're answering the question.
Jenny Evans:
[23:53] What are we talking about?
Paul Konrardy:
[23:54] Yeah. I'm sorry. I need a refresher.
Jenny Evans:
[23:58] Okay is fear a fear of change is it a sign to move forward or a warning to stop.
Paul Konrardy:
[24:07] Oh glad you brought that back um i think it's a time to pause but it doesn't mean it's one or the other it it could be that you it's a warning sign it could be depending on what flags are flying yeah
Jenny Evans:
[24:25] But it also could be flag is flying i can never say.
Paul Konrardy:
[24:30] That freak flag sign me up i'm there yes all aboard yeah um yeah i i think it's a pause point more than it is a to me for myself it's more of a pause and then i have to look at what what is the fear part Why am I having this fear? Because that will, that's an indication to me of whether it's something that is the magnitude of it and whether it's something that's going to have a permanent or what's the outcome going to be? Is it going to be a permanent thing or is this just temporary? So I think it's a reflection point more than it's a stop in my tracks and regress or not.
Susan Evans:
[25:13] Yeah. I think that, yeah, it's looking at it. It's like, am I scared because I'm getting filled with dread and, oh God, I don't know what to do kind of thing? Or is it, wow, this change makes me excited and the opportunities are great. So it's like change that way. So I think it's stopped to say,
Susan Evans:
[25:35] okay, which side am I on here? Oh, great. you know which one makes sense yeah yeah because those aren't those aren't the same thing in fear of change fear of success which is a whole nother topic because i don't think people know how to do that um because we all know fear of failure and how to come back up from that it's like that's every day you're like yeah i got that one it's like i i read something this morning i said you have to keep going because you have beaten every bad day you've had so far. So you're okay. And I was like, so that fear of change thing is kind of like, well, you've come this far, let's keep going. Yeah. Yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[26:19] I mean, just having some curiosity about your reaction, hence, monsters of curiosity. And I think what we've all been saying is, how do I know if this is a signal to move forward or a signal to stop? Is, I mean, like, is this fear, like starting out one of two categories, is this actually trying to protect me from a truly dangerous situation? Or is this fear and discomfort related to growth in that This is something new. This is something I haven't done before. This is me getting out of my comfort zone. And I think, but also here's what gets tricky is that Sneaky Pete will try to convince you that everything that he's telling you to do, it's all protective.
Jenny Evans:
[27:18] So again of like this is why i think so many organizations struggle with how do we change our culture if we do mergers and acquisitions how do we change the way people work when you're adopting new sources of technology why is it so hard for people to get on board it is because It's because both you have that rational part of your brain that understands if we're not changing, we're not growing. And if you're not growing, then you're falling behind. And that change is a good thing. But then you also have that other part of your brain that's kicking and screaming and saying, no, red alert, danger. Let's not do this because, again, I'm going to give you every scenario as to everything that can go wrong. I'm not going to give you a single scenario as to why this is good or what great thing should potentially come out of this. I don't know. So I think one of the biggest takeaways is... This is a very normal biological reaction. It's a healthy reaction. But how do you then get around it? How do you separate it?
Jenny Evans:
[28:41] And again, I think it's so situation dependent and so personality dependent. But actually, I want to go back, Susan. I love the question that you asked, like when you were younger versus older. I think I was a lot better at taking risk and just like embracing change when I was younger because I felt like I've got nothing to lose. I don't have a mortgage. I don't have a child. Like, this is the beginning of my career. This is when I'm supposed to be figuring things out versus when you're a little bit older, you've got more on the line. And then I also think we tell ourselves we're supposed to have things figured out by now. I'm supposed to be able to handle this better by now.
Susan Evans:
[29:30] Mm-hmm. When I was younger, I honestly didn't know better. I was so focused. The bubble that I was in was, I'm going to grow this business. I started the business in a recession. I grew it, and then I expanded in a recession. And if somebody came to me right now and said, I'm starting a business, I would say, no, we're not going to do that. Do you see what's going on around you? But I mean, the things that were going on around at the time I started, I was an idiot. I mean, it's like, what the hell?
Jenny Evans:
[30:05] I'm not nodding because you were an idiot. I'm nodding because I can completely relate.
Susan Evans:
[30:09] No, totally. I think both are okay. But it was that thing of, but I think at the time it was the same thing. It's like, I got nothing to lose here. I might as well do it because I can go do something else. But keeping that kind of personal wisdom in the face of change is hard to do. The older you get because you do want to start protecting but is that protection and this is why i think i could not say to a business owner more or loudly or in bright lights in uh in times square that you have got to phone friends at a time when you have when you're hitting this point where you're like this is happening i don't know what to do or is this fear just white noise and me personally, which is fine because then I can go, okay, that's over here. Now the business decision has to be here. Or if I'm, I always had people who were much older than I was.
Susan Evans:
[31:11] I had a age spectrum so I could get those different points of view to say, oh no, the nine times I did this, it always worked out like this. Good to know. Cause this is my first one. So if I go forward, I know where the potholes are and so I think in that change there is wisdom in it but there's also self-protection in it for what's good and bad and I think from a business standpoint you've got to have all I mean you're never going to make the right decision every single time but you're probably smart enough to say it didn't work but I can tweak it now that we're on this road to to the best of anybody's ability but I think that I had a lot of I was just, you know, ignorant in the best of ways when it came to what's
Susan Evans:
[32:00] going on in the world.
Jenny Evans:
[32:01] That is the secret sauce. To be an entrepreneur.
Paul Konrardy:
[32:07] I was just going to say that's the entrepreneur way. You have to have a certain level of that. It's almost like going to the theater and having the suspension of disbelief. Because otherwise, if you think you're going to figure everything out as an entrepreneur and you're never going to have a challenge, that's difficult to overcome. You can have challenges that are, you know, fun, but you have some that are like, oh my God, how am I going to get through this? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're kidding yourself. But it's the fear that can also motivate. Instead of keeping you, saying it's a warning, this change is a warning. You know, I'm having this fear and it's a warning. Instead, it can be a motivator too, to say, okay, well, I definitely don't want that to happen, so I've got to move this somewhere. And what that progress looks like is is definitely change so you you got to get through it um i think we've all had experiences in that with the entrepreneurial life i'm going holy crap what did i do to myself why why did i do this um but i in that case i think the fear piece of it can't be stagnating it has to be it has to be motivating of some sort or at least get you moving forward to something and that that is that in itself is where the change can't be stagnating for you it has to be moving forward i think i said the same thing about four five times there oh well well
Susan Evans:
[33:35] No it's true though it's true it's like if because if you ignore the fear I can't think of a time I ever ignored the fear, to be honest with you.
Jenny Evans:
[33:46] I was just going to say, how do you do that?
Paul Konrardy:
[33:48] I don't know how you can. I mean, as Jen just said, it's there. It's back.
Susan Evans:
[33:52] It's always there.
Paul Konrardy:
[33:53] It's coming at you.
Susan Evans:
[33:54] Yeah. It's like that fear of this could, I thought every day this could blow up at any time. So I always told people, it's like, I operate out of fear that this thing that's been going on for 20 years is going to blow up at any time. It's like at a certain point, you think maybe not, but it's like, no, the minute you think that, you're screwed. So it's like it was always living in that entrepreneurial fear was probably the best thing because it wasn't, oh, my God, pulling my hair out. I'm panicking. It was like smart fear. It was really intelligent fear of, okay, if this happens, we can do these three things. this, this, this, which is sort of that sneaky Pete way of, I'm going to make the whole thing go to hell in a handbag, but I'm going to give you some outcomes. So that's, I, that, I was always there, always there.
Jenny Evans:
[34:49] You know, again, it made me just like finishing on, uh, what you can do with this. Susan, I love, love, love your advice of the, the phone, a friend of like having somebody who's outside of it, who's not triggered. But I also think like another thing that can be really helpful when change is happening to you or you're even trying to do the change yourself is are you clear on why this change matters? Yeah. You know, like knowing your sense of purpose, you know, can really give you a lot of courage to continue to move forward in the face of uncertainty. That if you can see how this change is really connected to something that matters, that's what creates that resilience, that grit, that persistence versus like, I don't even know why we're even doing this. Well, then it's really easy to be overrun by the fear and then just be like, I'm not going to move forward with this.
Susan Evans:
[36:03] Yeah, that's that brings up something that I totally forgot that we would do all the time because clearly I've blocked it. But we would go into crisis situations. And I learned this from somebody who's on my advisory board who did crisis. So people I had on the board were not friends of mine. They were people I respected because my friends would always say, no, you're doing it right. I'm like, God damn it. No, I'm not. You've got to be honest. You know, it's like, so I had people I barely knew give me advice, which is like the best advisory board you can ever have because they just will give it to you. But we would walk into situations if there was a crisis or something was going left of center even was, what does it look like on the other side for you?
Susan Evans:
[36:44] What does success look like? What does happiness look like? What does a good company feel look like at the end of this really weird roller coaster ride? And like, it would be these five things. I'm like, okay, now we know what we're working towards. And that was really helpful for everybody because it was like, now that I'm, now that I know what the end has the opportunity to look like, and no matter how hard you try, something will screw it up and that's fine. But you at least have that vision at the end of the rainbow to go to.
Paul Konrardy:
[37:14] And that removes fear. That removes fear right there.
Susan Evans:
[37:17] Now I'm going through a process to get there.
Jenny Evans:
[37:21] Love it.
Paul Konrardy:
[37:22] Well, until next time.
Susan Evans:
[37:25] Yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[37:26] Stay curious.
Paul Konrardy:
[37:27] Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Susan Evans:
[37:29] Stay curious.
Jenny Evans:
[37:29] You monster.
[37:31] Before you go, a friendly reminder that the people on this podcast are curious, not certified. Nothing you just heard is professional legal, financial, or business advice. It was a conversation, a good one, but still just a conversation. And if something they said makes you want to rethink your entire business model, maybe you should sleep on it first and then call someone with a license. The hosts bring the ideas and you bring the judgment, and if it all works out, they'd love to hear about it. If it doesn't, well, then they've never met you. All content is copyright monsters of curiosity and may not be reproduced or distributed without permission.
