Susan Evans:
[0:15] Welcome back to Monsters of Curiosity, where we have three monsters who are
Susan Evans:
[0:19] very curious, especially about our topic today. I will kick it off and then we'll introduce each other. What we're talking about today, and it came up, I think, in our last get-together, is how internal distrust is increasing in business. Because we're reading this all over the place and hearing about it from friends and colleagues, that there's distrust in business. It has to do with return to office, downsizing, layoffs, reorgs, M&As, you name it, it's happening. And here to talk about it is myself, Susan Evans, handled a lot of M&As and downsizing and layoffs in my life and can say firsthand on the front line. Did see a lot of distrust. So from there, I'll turn it over to Jenny Evans.
Jenny Evans:
[1:06] Hello, everybody. Good to be back again. Glad you're here. As a speaker and executive coach, I really see this a lot as well, especially, Susan, like all of the change that you mentioned is constantly happening on a global perspective, economic, political, personal. Yeah, trust just isn't what it what it used to be. So I'm excited to dig in and hear everybody's thoughts. Paul.
Paul Konrardy:
[1:39] Uh, yeah, I'm Paul Konrardy and I've lived through many mergers and acquisitions and change of ownership and all that sort of thing in multiple roles. So I just wanted to add to this that, uh, the trust tax is a real thing. And in my kind of thinking through systems and, and how, how you can measure
Paul Konrardy:
[2:01] things, it is a measurable thing. And there are some specific things you can do as a business owner to be aware of, over time, how your trust may erode and what you can do about it.
Susan Evans:
[2:14] So I was thinking, because I was in the last couple of days, came up about how people don't trust their bosses or the company. And it's not like I don't trust the company. It's like, who is the company? It's my boss. It's my boss's boss. There's this level of, I have to watch out for me. And so I was thinking, when did this happen? I mean, is this actually new that we don't trust companies or are we just now talking about how for the past 75 years we haven't trusted companies?
Paul Konrardy:
[2:52] Maybe it's Citizens United that did it. I don't know.
Jenny Evans:
[2:56] Well, I think. I was like.
Susan Evans:
[2:59] Oh, go. Go.
Jenny Evans:
[3:00] Well, when you think, like, how long has this happened? For me, the first thing I think of is this is something that is hardwired and baked into our brains for millions of years, that the default option for our brain is to assume the worst, because that was a protective mechanism. And that trust was something in a new environment that if your default was, oh, I'm just gonna trust everyone and everything about this environment, we wouldn't have survived. And so that...
Jenny Evans:
[3:37] Survival hardwiring, to your point, Susan, is all of us, which includes the CEO of the company, the people that are on the board, the leaders, the managers, the frontline employees, we are all in survival mode, looking out for our own best interest, which isn't always the best interest of the team, of the company, of society. So there's this primitive part of our brain that is saying, don't trust people. But then there's the advanced part of our brain that understands like, well, if there's not a sense of trust here, how are we really going to get things done? And how do we create trust? So I would say lack of trust has been around since the dawn of man.
Susan Evans:
[4:33] Yes. I don't trust the bear over there outside the cave. No, I don't.
Paul Konrardy:
[4:39] Your point's well taken about survival. I mean, think about our parents telling us, don't get into strangers' cars. I mean, that's like we're trained from early on. And I can only imagine kids these days are really put into a place of distrustfulness. And that just kind of comes out of our society right now it just oozes out
Susan Evans:
[4:59] I think i remember a friend of all of ours talking about this uh david stillman through generations and he was we would have conversations about this and he's like well boomers were loyal to their company and then gen x got through layoffs and then became skeptical it's like well i was just laid off but my parents never were so what's going on and then millennials saw parents get laid off and came to the job market like I don't trust any of you and Gen Z has no loyalty at all because it so it feels like for a business owner.
Susan Evans:
[5:43] It's eroded over time. And I don't know, frankly, if it's the small business owner. It's the swaths of people who get laid off from Meta, from Google, and that's what you read about. And how companies do it in a way so they don't have to alert SEC. We're going to do it once here, and then we're going to do death by a thousand cuts at certain points so it doesn't raise alarm bells. For our shareholders or our stock price. And so I think it's been this thing.
Susan Evans:
[6:20] That maybe was there since the dawn of time, but became very, I think really, it's all over now. It's like, because I'm skeptical and I've been on the inside ring of layoffs and having to say, here's how we're going to talk about this so people believe us. And we'd have to ask, what is true? What is going to happen? Because you can't say this is the last of the layoffs, because that's a lie. Because the CEOs weren't doing it because they knew there'd be more. They're just like, we can't say it. Because if one customer leaves, we won't have enough for payroll. We'll have to lay off again. So how the economics of it were real. But I don't know that any of the companies would say it's the economics of it. It's math. It comes down to math.
Paul Konrardy:
[7:17] It can be, but isn't it the authentic voice that's kind of driving some of this? And I mean, I know Gen Z and millennials have these built-in BS meters because they've been marketed to since they were, you know, toddlers. So they really don't see, particularly in the digital world that I live in, they don't see authenticity as, they don't see marketing messages as anything but a marketing message and they ignore it. Whereas authenticity, which is why influencers have so much powers, because they're viewed as being authentic voices. And when they break that trust because of whatever they've done for, you know, how they're marketing a product in the midst of their stuff in a way that's inauthentic, there they go. They're gone.
Paul Konrardy:
[8:07] So I think that's why we see these really huge distrust signals coming out. And companies can get that. I mentioned it earlier, it's like a trust tax. It's kind of like a technology debt. You have some problems that continue to compound over time. And trust is one of those signals that I think factors into how a company is viewed. And that's from both the employees as well as customers. So, um, but I, I, I kind of want to go back to that authenticity piece and maybe Jen, you have some thoughts on that in that.
Paul Konrardy:
[8:45] How do we filter? How do humans filter that in their experience of each other, in relationship building, etc.? There has to be trust as part of the basis of it, but how do you do that without seeming overly eager?
Jenny Evans:
[9:05] Yeah. You know, I think I'm thinking about like how often I hear from leaders with an organization that we want to build more trust. And as we're talking about this, I think some leaders make the erroneous assumption that there's a high level of trust at baseline and it just gets eroded over time. I feel like baseline, I think you should be assuming that you're not trusted and that trust is something that you need to be working towards, not just in your words, but in your actions, in your priorities every single day. Because, Paul, to your point, human beings in the authenticity, we're really good at noticing when there is a disconnect between what somebody says and what they do in past history.
Jenny Evans:
[10:13] And I just said, to your point, Susan, too, it's getting worse with, we can't even trust our own eyes anymore because videos are now can be fake images we can't trust our ears anymore of like trust really is at a premium these days and i think the authenticity piece You know, I think a lot of managers struggle with how much can I really share with employees, even from a legal perspective, of what's really going on in the company? And how do you how do you toe that line? I mean, Susan, you work so much with companies and business owners where, you know, they come to you because something really bad is happening. And they have to they have to communicate and navigate through that
Susan Evans:
[11:10] Yes well and it was always even when there were you know rifts reduction in force when they would have when companies would have layoffs or there would be mass closures of stores across the country whatever it would be it came down to what is true what is happening here and we always had to start well at least I would say, we have to start with the truth. And now we can't, oftentimes it's like you can't be completely transparent and not because you didn't want to be, but it had to do with, we can't predict the future. And if we say four things and we're guessing at three of them, the chances of us being correct in six weeks could be slim to none. So what we had to say was true at the time because we weren't sure what was going to happen, whether it would be a good result, a medium result, or a bad result. And that's where we'd say, we need to tell the truth as we know it now. And employees would be, as they found out six weeks later, how come you didn't tell us then? It's like, because we didn't know then that this was going to happen. So now the constant adjustment to tell the truth, because the truth is not static.
Susan Evans:
[12:24] It changes because we all change. And that was one of the things that we chased a lot was how much can we tell people? And stay true and truthful in this moment so we can give people the leadership that they're looking for. And that was really hard. It was hard because I can text you. I can go on my Slack channel, my Teams channel. It's like I can tell you anything now, whereas before there wasn't a Slack channel. And the reason I bring that up is that some of the leadership teams I worked with were old. And I don't mean that in a bad way. But they were old and had history of, I remember a fax machine and pre-fax. So the chances of you as an employee or shareholder finding anything out was much less possible because the channels of communication weren't so ubiquitous. Is that the right word? I don't even know.
Paul Konrardy:
[13:22] No, I think it is.
Susan Evans:
[13:23] Yeah. And so it was interesting in that we had to tell the truth as we knew it at the moment. And they would say, I remember when we used to be able to say things definitively because, There was less, I would say, transparency, because these multiple communication channels, one person can text something out, boom, it's out. And now it's transparent, and now that's different. And that's what we would always say, who knows what when? Because I would say 99.9% of the time, we were trying to protect people, saying, if they know about a reorg, an M&A, a this or that, The only thing people think is, is my job safe? It's not, well, this makes sense for the company as a whole. No one thinks that. And so as we were going through a lot of this, a lot of these processes, trust and truthfulness were at the forefront.
Susan Evans:
[14:26] What was happening is we couldn't predict the future, so we could only say so much. And to your point, Jen, for legal reasons, too, because for publicly traded companies, you can't say this is exactly what's going to happen because I'm buying you based on the news you're telling me. So we have to be careful with that.
Paul Konrardy:
[14:41] Isn't there a role, though, in leadership, I don't know exactly how to, guiding principle, for lack of a better term. I mean, I'm not talking about what you put on your website and say, this is our guiding principles, but just like a cultural thing for decision making. Because if you think through that, when, if you were going to like tell your, or an employee found out how the decisions were made about them.
Paul Konrardy:
[15:11] Let's just say that leaky sieve of information gets leaked out if they find out the real reasons and not what you're saying i mean would would they trust you more or would they trust you less and that's that's kind of the question that i think a leader has to ask particularly when it comes to employee trust is if the decision-making process includes them if they found out how the sausage was made would they trust you more would they trust you less so i kind of think of that as a principle of whether you're making a decision decision based on really authentic reasons or are you trying to do something sort of backhanded i mean and this this kind of parlays into uh return to office right now there's there's some people who are noticing um that when people when companies decide to return to office, there are people who don't that self-select not to return and turns into a riff.
Paul Konrardy:
[16:17] Whether that's the intent of the leadership when they're doing it, it has a trust signal to it to say, I don't trust you're working at home as well as you would if you came into the office. And then some people say, I'm not going back to the office. And suddenly they have fewer folks where that may have been the intent behind it. But the trust signal is, that you don't trust me. So, of course, there's going to be that next thing that you do. We do as humans see something bad behind it. Like, there's a bad reason you're wanting me to do this versus it being we have a cultural decision to make here whether we're going to continue this or we're going to do it a different way i mean from a processed standpoint that that's another consideration here is like what signals are you sending when you track people's um you know how often their computer's active or those types of things i mean that's a trust tax piece that i you know i think there's a way to mark to measure that and over time you figure out oh yeah that isn't a great position for us to have because it does send up a flag that we don't trust you as a as an employee or as a team that
Susan Evans:
[17:27] I remember reading about uh well i'd still read about that they're now little machines you can buy to move your mouse all over your screen so it looks like you're working and And when I heard that, I thought that company is probably having issues long before this.
Paul Konrardy:
[17:44] Oh, yeah.
Susan Evans:
[17:45] Yeah. And that's those are the signs where it's like, OK, it's that's a trust issue, not only from an employer standpoint, because I don't think most it's I've always found it interesting. It kind of aligned for men in black. People are smart. A group is stupid because most of the people are. When you work with a boss, everybody has a boss or a person or something, they're like, not my favorite person. I respect the work you do, but you're not coming to happy hour with me. Fine. But the group of people can make less than delightful decisions.
Susan Evans:
[18:27] And that's where, when I'm tracking, and I think, I firmly believe this, and not a lot of leadership do, but I think most leaders operate out of fear, where it's like, well, let's track this and see what they do. It's like, well, if you're having to do that, you're doing something wrong already. There is something systemically wrong if you are so concerned that the productivity is down that much that you're tracking mouse traffic across the screen. It's like we're looking at the wrong thing now. We are completely looking at the wrong issue here. And that's the piece to me where if you don't want to come back to work. And I remember at the beginning, I probably said this to you, Paul, when I was like, oh, let's get everybody back in the office. And like, it seemed to be all the older CEOs, because that's how they grew up running a company. They didn't know anything else, no harm, no foul. But it's like, Jesus, God, I don't know how to run this company if I don't see people every day. Younger business owners who had started business were like, well, yeah, but my people work that way anyway. So I'm okay with it. And so it was really, it felt much more old school and it's not, I don't think it was a distrust thing. It was a skill thing on their part. They didn't know how the hell to run this thing without seeing people in their seats because that's what they grew up with, saw their parents grow up with. And that equated success, productivity, and bottom line.
Susan Evans:
[19:57] No, the culture was not in any of that. That's what I thought was so interesting.
Jenny Evans:
[20:01] And Susan, that's a good point.
Paul Konrardy:
[20:04] Sorry.
Jenny Evans:
[20:04] Oh, sorry, Paul. That companies start noticing that they have a trust problem, to your point, like, when it's so far down the line. And what they're looking at, oftentimes, is the symptom of lack of trust and not what is the root cause of lack of trust. And what it's been making me think about is, What is trust really made of? I think there's really two important components. Truth and transparency.
Susan Evans:
[20:41] Mm-hmm.
Jenny Evans:
[20:43] Are you being truthful? Like, I love, Susan, like your first question that you help organizations with is, what is the truth of the situation? And how transparent can you be with that truth? Because when humans as when we lack information, what we will do is we will start making assumptions and our brain is hardwired to always assume the worst. And so we will start to make things up. And if organizations leave any room for assumptions, even the slightest bit, the assumption default is going to be negative with your people.
Susan Evans:
[21:30] Mm-hmm.
Paul Konrardy:
[21:34] I think what I was going to say earlier is one of those metrics, when you're thinking about a trust tax and you're thinking about measuring it, one of those things is how many people get CC'd on emails. That is a huge indicator of how trustworthy people have that relationship. What's your relationship like? Do I need to copy somebody else in to cover me off on this or to make sure that, you know, the purpose of the CC is to actually build collaboration, but it actually has, in some ways, the opposite effect of like a telltale. So I'm going to tattle, you know, that kind of stuff. And that's a trust indicator. Absolutely. And I think, you know, when you measure that over time with a company, you can kind of see what their, what their culture is like, because the more CCs they put on the, the less productivity actually comes in the less people are trying to do something novel or unique. They're just trying to CYA. So I, that is for me as a systems guy, it's like, oh, that would be fun measurement to keep track of as you go to say, hmm, how many you got going there? Yeah. I love that kind of stuff. I love knowing that kind of stuff. I don't love that it happens, but I love knowing that's it.
Susan Evans:
[22:59] But I think it's interesting because there's the trust issue, I always think it's not a communication problem. It's a show me problem. Because you can't say, I sent this letter out, so now you trust me. It's just like a relationship. You don't go on a first date and go, thank God we're getting married. It's like, I don't even know where you live. You know, it's like, and so you've got to have this built trust over time. And then what does that look like? When we would do these things, it was always, we can send out, Because, Jen, to your point, if you don't send something out, there's not really one solution. It's like a two or three prong solution. You've got to show. You've got to walk the talk. I hate that phrase. It is so stupid. But it's true.
Susan Evans:
[23:53] You have to say, here's what we're going to do and then do it. And not through Minions, although I love Minions because that is one of my favorite movies. The leadership has to do it. leadership has to show up and say, hey, how's it going?
Susan Evans:
[24:10] Those situations in trust are trickled down. It's not trickled down to the executive VP level and then they'll trickle it down. It's like, no, you got to show up and do it.
Susan Evans:
[24:21] The most successful companies who are concerned, not the most successful, the ones who survive the ups and downs, because I don't want to say success is money. The ones who have survived the ups and downs understand who their people are. And if people are comfortable, they will do the work and thrive. And that has been how trust is built. We always used to say this when Paul and I worked together, when we've all worked together and with other clients and in different companies, I got your back. That was the most important thing. It wasn't reporting to me or to anybody else. We would always say this to the CEOs, the most important thing is that you show you have their back. That is critical. And if you can't do that.
Susan Evans:
[25:09] From leadership down, you have got problems because then you're in that I'm going to cover my ass because at any given moment I could be fired and I'm going to make sure it's like that save yourself mentality is really hard to have a productive, successful, bottom line driven culture and company. If you don't have everybody on the same page knowing I can trust you. And I think that was, I always thought if my people are happy, the rest will fall into place. And that was the, people would say, well, what's your job, Susan? It's like to make sure nobody out there is unhappy. That is my job. And then after that, we just have fun learning. But that is, I've met a lot of business leaders who believe the same thing. But there are a lot that don't. It's just a transaction. You show up, I pay you.
Paul Konrardy:
[25:59] Yeah, but That fun of, we're going to learn together, that requires trust across the board. You have to have that. Otherwise, it's not going to happen. Then it's like, I need to know what I need to know, and I got to have to have a piece of paper or a certification that I know what I'm talking about. Otherwise, forget it. But that learning together piece is that. I think, Jen, that probably, I'd love you to ask, that feels like a tribal thing. It's like a, it's like a really early brain thing of how do we, how do we work together to survive? Am I, is that accurate? I mean, that just kind of feels like it, but you would know better than me.
Jenny Evans:
[26:42] Yeah. I mean, it. We could not survive on our own. Doing all of the hunting, all of the gathering, all of the child rearing, all of the creating of shelter, you could not do that alone. You needed a tribe, you needed a community where it really was all about my survival depends on your survival, which depends on all of our survival. Susan, this idea of I've got your back versus I'm covering my ass. I love that. And what it made me think of, I do improv comedy and I perform, but one of the last things that we say to each other before we go on stage is, I've got your back. I've got your back. And really, one of the goals of improv is to make your partner look good.
Jenny Evans:
[27:48] And if everybody goes in with that intention, I'm going to try to make everybody else on stage look really good. They're also thinking, Jenny, I'm going to make you look really good. And when that is the mindset... Where you have that sense of trust, and you can take that risk. Because if something goes badly, you know somebody's right there to pick you up, to yes and that thing. It's so important.
Paul Konrardy:
[28:25] That's the ultimate trust, I would think, is getting on stage with people that you know are going to be there when that joke goes really awry, or can help you unwind that really stupid thing you just said so uh you know is it really that different for business probably not particularly like when you're doing a client presentation you you're you're you gotta have that otherwise you're you're kind of out there flailing and we've all seen that happen and that is that's another trust indicator it
Susan Evans:
[28:58] Is it is and we would train people in crisis because you've got a fight or flight thing there. And if you're in charge of a team, a location, a building, blocks, cities, whatever it would be, it was you have to have each other's back through that because the minute somebody jumps ship, you have lost control. Now, people will jump ship, and there are always outcome scenarios for that for various reasons, but you have to walk in, and that crisis team, And what's going on is, We have each other's backs in this. And to do that meant you had to have transparency in communication and who you were as a person. So you'd say, I'm not good at that because you can't test it in seven seconds when you have to make a decision. And so it was really good training for me for running the company where it was, I would have to ask my team, if you think something's going south you have got to tell me because i can't save you in the moment, if i don't know what's happened it is very hard for me to do that and it's not because i wouldn't it's just that i know how to save you in almost every situation but i have to know everything.
Paul Konrardy:
[30:23] Yeah I don't i don't know why that stink that just rings a bell Susan i don't know was i just terrible to work with because you kept saying that to me and i'm like what? You know everything. You know everything.
Susan Evans:
[30:35] Well, no, but it's because I think a lot of the times who we work with in business is if you tell me everything and who you're working with, it's not necessarily what are you doing, but what are the situations you're working with? Who are the players? What's happening? So I can have your back. So if we know that there's someone in finance.
Susan Evans:
[30:57] It's kind of a, a whatever, you know, a nut job or something. It's like, okay, or if there's someone in HR who's, you know, not quite with it for whatever reason, I have to know that. So it's like, well, they said this, this, and that. And it's like, yeah, the truth is somewhere in the middle, but at least I have an understanding of the situation so I can have your back. And that would build the trust, which would, I think, keep people within the crisis group and then coming back if there was another crisis because the situation worked well. Or same thing in a riff. This worked as best it could and we were prepared for things because we were honest with each other, we trusted each other, and we had each other's backs. And the business leaders I worked with, we all talked about it. It's we have to trust our employees and it's what we trust our employees.
Susan Evans:
[31:52] We have to prove we're worthy of their trust back. It was never the other way around. You trust me automatically. It's like, of course you don't. You came to work for me or this company or whatever on a wing and a prayer.
Susan Evans:
[32:04] Is that the phrase? I don't know. But because of that, it was our job to show you can trust us. And with that, in a good environment, it was easier to keep people. It was easier to keep the really smart people. And, you know, everybody goes off and graduates to better things. But those were kind of my advisory board. And like I said, in the companies I worked with, that was the gold to develop trust. It was never on the employees. It was always on the business leaders to keep the best people. And it wasn't by money. A lot of the people that, the problem people were the ones who weren't driven by money. It's like, dear God, how are we going to keep you? So it was really interesting.
Jenny Evans:
[32:55] Susan, I love what you said there. I made a note of that, that trust is totally a two-way street, and especially in the business world. And I think a really important question that especially large business owners, boards, executive teams need to ask themselves, what are we doing on a daily basis that is creating trust? Instead of like, well, people should just automatically trust us. They should show up. They should do their jobs. They should put in the work. What are you doing specifically to foster and create trust? And I think a lot of them, if you look at it, like, yes, there's not a lot that we're doing to create trust because what we're often doing is we're downsizing, we're laying off, we're restructuring. There's new policies and procedures all the time. And guess what? Guess who those benefit more? The people or the company? It's always the company. And so if you really look side by side and create a list, what are the things that we do that erodes trust? What do we do that helps to build trust? I think most organizations would be blown away by how much they do that erodes trust.
Susan Evans:
[34:23] Yeah. And I think they believe that communication builds trust, which is a lie. It is part of building trust. But just because I sent this out doesn't mean I trust you now.
Paul Konrardy:
[34:36] You believe it either.
Susan Evans:
[34:37] Yeah. And most people don't believe it anyway. But I think it's we would always say, here's what we can say. Here's what I can't say. Because there are legal wranglings. I mean, there are all sorts of. And people understand that. I mean, I understand you can't tell me everything, but tell me when you think that'll change. Just keep me along the journey and check in. And it's not just communication. And I think that's the default for HR and M&A and RIFs and stuff. It's like, we'll send the memo out and it'll be fine. And they can't understand why the intellectual capital just exited the building. And it's like the smartest people usually leave first because they can they're just like this ain't for me and i don't trust you and i can go find something else and and by the time you realize the smartest people left you're you're left with your c plus b minus folk and it's like it's hard to innovate with c plus b minus oh that is so harsh but that's the way we used to talk so.
Paul Konrardy:
[35:39] But it's a reality. It's a reality.
Jenny Evans:
[35:43] I mean, I'm curious about this. How would each of you define trust?
Paul Konrardy:
[35:57] That's a great question. I think what comes to mind is that I don't have surprises. I don't work with somebody that gives me constant surprises like gotchas or, oh, I didn't know that, so I'm having to react a certain way or I'm having to respond to something. To me that's a that's it takes time to have that experience in order to build the that feeling that i can trust you um i think there's also for me if i hear somebody say honestly or the truth is those are signals to me that i'm not always getting the truth from them but that's...
Jenny Evans:
[36:48] That red flag is a waving
Paul Konrardy:
[36:49] Yeah exactly that's that's but that's my personal life experience telling me whenever i hear that i'm like i'm gonna scrutinize you differently because it may not be the truth you're telling me or the full truth you know half truths are can be considered untruths as well so maybe you're telling me partly true but But I'm skeptical. I'm deeply skeptical just because of lots of experiences that make me go. So maybe I'm looking at this at the opposite of what you were asking the question. How do you develop trust? Well, that's, that's, uh, action. You know, that's definitely making sure that people follow through with what they say they're going to do. And, you know, if they can't, they give a reason for it. Um, that's not an excuse or the dog ate my homework.
Jenny Evans:
[37:42] Susan, how do you define trust?
Susan Evans:
[37:44] Yeah, I don't know if I define it as much as I experience it. And that's over time. It's like, it's historical. Mostly because... I don't think people reveal themselves right away and just because it's people. And so it's like over time you learn who to trust. And it doesn't mean I don't trust or do trust right away. It's more of an exploration and a roadmap. And so it's like, oh, we took a left there. That is interesting. And so as the relationship develops and as I get to know you, it's then, okay, I can trust to this level or that level. And it's no judgment, no harm, no foul.
Susan Evans:
[38:34] I trust. It's kind of a moving target because if you're going crazy in your life and you say you're going to do something and you don't, it's because your life is going crazy. And I get that. And that's fine. You know, it's like, it's, I, I tend to trust more on who the person is than what they do for me. If that makes any sense. It's like there's a trust, I had an advisory board and I trusted their opinions and they'd give me the, and they weren't close friends. A lot of them weren't close friends because I couldn't have them to be close friends to get good advice. Not that my close friends don't give me good advice.
Paul Konrardy:
[39:13] That's a truism. That's a truism.
Susan Evans:
[39:16] It's like i didn't want people to say oh you're working so hard though you know it's like no huh tell me what the hell is happening and i trusted them and they didn't get paid they were just fine human beings um, because of their experience and expertise. And I knew they'd deliver, which is a very different trust than my employees or clients. And so for me, there were different levels of trust. I trusted my employees to the ends of the earth, all of them. They were just all brilliant, all really smart. And if there were ever issues, it's because there was stuff going on in their lives and you have to understand that. And it had nothing to do with trust. That was a performance thing. And let's figure that out. And then in clients, I had a healthy skepticism because they couldn't tell me everything because of legal reasons, HR reasons, personal stuff. And so I have these levels of kind of expected trust for different situations. So it's not a hundred percent everywhere. That makes no sense, but I had to do it that way.
Paul Konrardy:
[40:18] I think that's your proprietary truth score. You know, you have your own methods. And just like I explained, I have mine. How about for you, Jen? What are your, how do you determine trustworthiness?
Jenny Evans:
[40:37] To me, it's proof over time. And really, when you divide those things, Paul, you used this word. It's action. What actions do you take consistently? I mean, that's really at the heart of how to create trust.
Jenny Evans:
[40:57] Proof over time.
Paul Konrardy:
[41:00] We all said time. You know, that's funny. We all said time was a component in our trust determination. So I can totally get that.
Susan Evans:
[41:10] Yeah, that's interesting.
Jenny Evans:
[41:13] So what's the big takeaway for everybody? Do you trust us to give it to you right now?
Paul Konrardy:
[41:23] Somebody else go first.
Jenny Evans:
[41:28] I think, like, I actually took a lot of notes today. I really love the I've got your back versus I'm covering my own ass. If everybody approaches the situation with I've got your back, which means you've got my back and everybody else has each other's back, I think that goes so far in creating a culture of trust.
Susan Evans:
[41:55] Yeah. I would say start with the truth that you can tell because they're always HR legal. There are so many legal reasons why we couldn't do things, but we had to, we learned to tell the truth with what you know right now. And then just kind of show up for that and make sure that everyone understood it. Don't send the memo out and go, oh, they must have it. But then I would say, yeah, I've got your back.
Susan Evans:
[42:24] And that is not something you say i have your back and you revisit it every 12 months it's i've got your back and you've got to check in and say what's going on is there anything i need to know there's a constant check-in so you can help people um and then i always assume i'm never trusted until i do something remotely decent that makes sense and a lot of it was i've got your back and i got people out of some really horrible scrapes who are my employees and other people it's like no here's how we get through this and it's just knowing that and i think so just i always assume it's my job to get people to trust me and if they don't trust it's like that's a different story in a different podcast that's fine but i i think it would be the truth and showing up and have their back and never assume that you're trusted and all of those, were kind of foundations for what I would tell clients and how I tried to run the business all the time, all the time. It's like I got it because I had to get people to trust me.
Paul Konrardy:
[43:32] I think in thinking through this topic, one of the major things that popped up through all the experiences I've had with being either an employee or even a leader in change is that what isn't said is sometimes more impactful than what is said.
Paul Konrardy:
[43:52] And sometimes it's really important for you to keep in mind that how you're thinking about it is going to parlay into how you are going to say what you're going to say about it so if you're coming at something with good intent that will come through but if you are holding back for whatever reason that is not necessarily in the best interest of either your enterprise or your employees or even yourself you just got to be mindful of that because it will it will sneak out and you and uh another piece of it is like you mentioned susan earlier about the sieve of how things get really yeah be mindful of who you tell what because not in a bad way it's just that you all have to have the same intent as you're going forward otherwise it is going to come out somehow and someone will find a way to share that regardless you say it to one person it's out there So just be mindful of your thoughts, because that often will lead to really positive things when it's positive and negative if it's negative.
Jenny Evans:
[44:59] All right. That is today's episode. You guys, let us know things that you're curious about as it relates to work, life, business. I feel like there's no question too small, no question too big. We love to get in and explore and be curious. So let us know.
Paul Konrardy:
[45:25] And please add the silly things because, you know, that's where I thrive.
Jenny Evans:
[45:29] Even better.
Susan Evans:
[45:32] And we'll have sort of a list of how to build trust showing up personally. I've got your back for any business owners who are like a starter list, please. So we'll have that in show notes.
Jenny Evans:
[45:44] Awesome.
Paul Konrardy:
[45:44] Even how to track it. I'll throw some things in on that. Because I think some people would find that interesting over time to see how their company is doing with their truth tax.
Susan Evans:
[45:53] Yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[45:54] Cool.
Susan Evans:
[45:56] Excellent.
Jenny Evans:
[45:57] All right.
Paul Konrardy:
[45:57] Bye, everybody.
Jenny Evans:
[45:58] See you guys next time.
Susan Evans:
[46:00] Bye.
[46:01] Before you go, a friendly reminder that the people on this podcast are curious, not certified. Nothing you just heard is professional legal, financial, or business advice. It was a conversation, a good one, but still just a conversation. And if something they said makes you want to rethink your entire business model, maybe you should sleep on it first and then call someone with a license. The hosts bring the ideas and you bring the judgment And if it all works out, they'd love to hear about it If it doesn't, well, then they've never met you All content is copyright monsters of curiosity And may not be reproduced or distributed without permission
