Susan Evans:
[0:17] Hey, welcome to Monsters of Curiosity. I'm Susan, and I am joined by my cohorts in crime, Paul Conrardi and Jenny Evans.
Susan Evans:
[0:28] And today we are talking about something interesting that we find ourselves running up against, at least the three of us. And I know all of you listening to, for those around you, when did we stop thinking for ourselves? And so we're going to jump on that today with so many layers to unpeel there, so uh paul when did we stop thinking for ourselves.
Paul Konrardy:
[0:54] Oh man did i don't know when we reached adulthood i don't know um at a certain point we do we do reach a uh i think ai has really added to that whole phenomenon of people not thinking but you know it also depends on where they are in their life and where they are in an organization, in a business? Are they just covering their tracks and keeping everything siloed? Or is it, is it something else that society is just saying, you know, like maybe there's generations of education that hasn't really taught people how to think. So at a certain point, you know, you teach the test, you end up not really thinking. So there's a lot of, a lot of milestones that we could point to that say, this is our journey towards not thinking as much as we possibly could.
Jenny Evans:
[1:46] I was going to say in the last election.
Susan Evans:
[1:50] I would say maybe the 2016 election. I don't know. We're repeating ourselves, which is fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice. Still shame on me is how I look at it.
Susan Evans:
[2:07] I, I thought of this this morning, um, When we stopped thinking for ourselves, I heard an ad. I listened to the NFL channel, justly, on Sirius. And there was an ad where this, it was for some SAS something somewhere. And it said, it's quoted in the Wall Street Journal and on CNBC. And I thought, okay, in the theme of today's show, the assumption is, I'm not going to question that or do it. That must mean it's good. And I thought, it could have been quoted in the Wall Street Journal. No, I did not commit fraud. But I will use that as quoted in the Wall Street Journal to make it sound good. And I thought, people just don't think anymore. They're like, oh, that must be good. I'll buy it. And so when you start to hear things, you don't question it. And that's what really got me. And I was like, we just take things at almost at face value. I was helping, I help people figure out how to use AI. And the most common thing I hear is, well, it told me this. And my next question is, why do you believe that? And they're like, well, because that's what it said. It's like, that's not really how this works. This isn't the truth machine.
Susan Evans:
[3:31] And so I started to go, no, there's no critical thinking left. Anymore and i think we you know people are thinking i'd rather have cheese with my hamburger than not and that's as far as the thought processes go sometimes, it's not thinking for the larger life we lead there's a lot of acceptance without thinking that really bothers me because people don't think through the next step.
Jenny Evans:
[4:06] I do think we're, I mean, my God, I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but I do think we're in trouble that, okay, our brain is always going to gravitate towards the easiest, laziest default option. Just because our brain is really expensive to use, so anytime your brain can take a shortcut, that's just like our nature. And now the level of shortcut that we're able to take, like, I was going to say the answer to the question, I was like, I think when sort of like Google or any sort of Internet search was sort of like the beginning of when we stopped thinking for ourselves, where it's just like, oh, I wonder, I'll just quick look it up versus Google. I don't know. I mean, because does ease of gaining information affect how much you're actually absorbing information? I don't know if that information is correct.
Paul Konrardy:
[5:20] Yeah, and I think you're on to the dawn of the information age was supposed to be that we're enlightened now. We have easy access to information. We can have better conversations. And that was along the same lines of when social media started up, which was supposed to replicate our in-person conversations and our in-person relationships, but with people from the other side of the world and all of these great aspirational goals or findings that were coming of this technology, allowing us to do these things. But at the same time, what's the downside that I think you're recognizing is then we don't have to really know the answer. We just have to know how to find it. And so there's an educational component to this too about
Paul Konrardy:
[6:08] I remember when open book tests were something new and novel because you could use a book you could re use a resource and they would actually test you on how you came to the answer versus that you memorized the answer and i think we've lost some of that with some of our educational theories and maybe i'm speaking out of turn here but you know when you teach to a test or when you have standardized teaching and then therefore you have to have a certain level of results based on a test i mean what's the natural human thing like you said it's easier to teach so that people understand what the answers are going to be before you teach them how to think about how to get to that answer that's ones that much easier through line so yeah information age down you know of the downside of it is that we possibly haven't really retained those skills of thinking because it's so much easier to just say, hey, Siri, what's the answer to this? What's this plus this? Or, you know, those answers that you used to have to calculate yourself, you don't have to do that.
Susan Evans:
[7:16] Right. I'd also say, since we don't have to do it, we can Google it or we can go to AI, we're not questioning it. I'd say the other thing, and this is for anybody who grew up in the 80s, I think it was John Coover-Mellencamp who had the Question Authority song. I'm not sure someone will need to check that.
Jenny Evans:
[7:37] That sounds good. That sounds right.
Susan Evans:
[7:39] Nobody's—thank you. I know it wasn't David Bowie, so there we are. Nobody's questioning the answers because in a company, Unless you've got a really solid leader who's like, yeah, let's make this better. They want to make it better with less money, less people. So if your solution takes too much time and possibly too much energy, it probably is not going to be the solution. The governments go to the lowest bidder when they bid on things, which isn't the best example in the world. But it's like, so we're kind of rewarding. Don't question anything. And you'll get further ahead. Which, not all the time, and I don't mean that as a blanket statement, but, I don't see the rewards coming from, it took us 18 months to get here, we had to redo the entire thing. That scares people. And it also changed, if you don't understand it, people push back against it. So it's almost, we're going to stop thinking because it's easier, I won't get in trouble. I might advance at my job if I don't do this and you start looking for it's not necessarily a shortcut.
Susan Evans:
[8:55] But of the 10 answers I got from AI maybe that one didn't serve me but I'm going to pick one of the 10 anyway because I'm not going to question it, because I need a shortcut I don't have time to do anything else and there was something somewhere oh we were talking about it yesterday where Michael Phelps said the swimmer he said the, your competition isn't in the lane next to you it's in your head and i started thinking about that going it's also time i'm not going to continue thinking about this because i don't have time, and so there's this time and internal pressure that we have that i don't.
Susan Evans:
[9:34] It's easier, and it's okay. And it's this real level of mediocrity. Not unlike the Minnesota Vikings. I'm just going to throw that in. But there's this level of mediocrity that we all have that really irritates me because it doesn't take that extra three steps could make you excellent. And that's what, that always gets me. I'm like, that's the easy way out. You know, 10 more minutes, and you would have had something brilliant.
Jenny Evans:
[10:03] Well you give up a good point of like are we as a society prioritizing speed over knowledge or thinking because you're right just true thinking takes time and now with the speed of everything, it seems like if, yeah, if a decision takes time or figuring it out takes time, let's just, we don't, we don't want to spend that time. Um, Yeah, I think what speed really enters in.
Susan Evans:
[10:47] Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[10:50] Well, speed and half-life of information is another piece of that. And the half-life of information has really shrunk. You know, how valid is this data has really shrunk. And I think that creates a situation where people are like, well, why should I learn this if it's not going to be a value in a year or six months? Or whatever timeframe we're talking about. And so therefore it turns it into a, what do I need to know versus what should I know? And I deal with a lot with data. I deal with a lot of clients with data. And when it comes to the data, they're always looking at the date. They're always looking at, okay, what timeframe is this?
Paul Konrardy:
[11:35] And some of the trends that you seek are over a longer period of time, but there's this desire for a quick win or a quick answer. That you can't always bubble up in, you know, two days. And, but I think there's this expectation that we're going to continually have instant, you know, whether that's instant answer from those answer engines that are now our search engines are becoming, or, you know, I'm always going to have access to that answer or to that, that resource without really thinking through, okay, well, how do you problem solve if you don't have that? Do you know how to do that? Or are you immobilized? It's kind of a fascinating thing to think through. How ready are we for natural disasters, as an example, when we don't have an infrastructure that can withstand it? And I think, you know, FEMA has... Been unfunded. I think we're just, you could look at that as to, are people really thinking through, are they ready for things? Because we are going to have to be ready for things. And I don't want to sound like one of those people that hoard a bunch of food.
Susan Evans:
[12:53] You mean the survivors?
Paul Konrardy:
[12:54] Yeah, that's it. I don't want to sound like that, but I do think that we have a deficit in how we plan and think that is going to impact our society at some point
Susan Evans:
[13:05] And it already has well with the with all the what did somebody call it i read it this morning, Make America Healthy Again, the Maha Toots, with all of the, where all the funding was cut for the FDA, and nobody's out checking to make sure that all the lettuce we're eating is actually as good as it should be, and now everyone has explosive diarrhea everywhere. And it's like, okay, nobody really, that's a classic example of, let's just do this because it's easy to save money. It's like, well, where did you cut it? The health of American citizens. Well, that's okay. You know, it's like, nobody thought that second question. Nobody.
Paul Konrardy:
[13:44] Right. Well, that's the word. Where did you not think for yourself? Where did you not think for yourself? Yeah. Boy, we are doom and gloom today.
Jenny Evans:
[13:54] Okay.
Paul Konrardy:
[13:56] I do have an example of something positive, but go ahead, Jen, and I will share that.
Jenny Evans:
[13:59] Well, this is even making me back up to the question of how do we even define thinking anymore? You know, because it used to be, I don't know, like way, way, way, way, way back before there were reference journals or whatever, like thinking just happened inside of your own head. And then our thinking was then influenced by books, by written word, and now how thinking, I think, is equated with using your computer. You know, like, literally just using your own brain versus its ability to think or using other tools. Like, when does thinking become research or sort of like outsourcing thinking? And you're just, you're gathering, you're gathering facts versus actual thinking.
Paul Konrardy:
[15:17] That's a really, that's a great question because as a human, you think on so many different levels at the same time. I mean, cause you've got your emotional intention and your intelligence factoring into your, the logical part of your brain with the fear and reward system. Um i mean you've got a lot of different things happening when you're thinking and when you think through something it's on different levels it isn't just one linear path and maybe that maybe that's admitting that i'm a little crazy because i do do that that's how i think there are people who don't that can be so focused that they can just compute through something and they get to a final product or result and they haven't had you know it's been very clear for them i think there's different ways the brain functions but you know as a human though you've got all those variances and so maybe as we've gone through this digital revolution of having access to information that's it's just changing that that which we we um exercise in our brain that That process of thinking, we don't necessarily exercise as much so it doesn't get stronger or better or those connections get better. I mean, is there something there that we should explore?
Jenny Evans:
[16:40] Well, it's making me think, okay, thinking requires time and it requires focus. And now with so many uh pieces of distraction available to us like i feel like we're consuming things at at all times and so when there's constantly things coming in it doesn't create a lot of opportunity for anything to come out you know like so it's making me think it's making me think i'm thinking right now um that our brains have become like more of information processors than actual thinking.
Susan Evans:
[17:20] Yeah, but I would say that, I'm going to get information I agree with, not information that I question. Oh. I don't look up new information to challenge what I think. I am looking for things that support my way of thinking. And that, for me, when we say, when did we stop thinking for ourselves, is more of the issue of, if you are against me, you are not for me. Instead of my God, as Ted Lasso says, expound, tell me more. I'm interested. I think there's a lot of ways to get information and there's a lot of ways to reject it without thinking because it doesn't hold up my morals, my standards, what I believe in, what I want and all of that. So I'm going to discount it. And I believe that means I'm not thinking because I've just shut the door on curiosity, on learning, on education, and for some reason.
Susan Evans:
[18:22] I think it was second Bush. And I think politics drives a lot of this because of funding for education and how politicians are portrayed. It used to be you wanted a guy who was really smart to run this country, who understood all people all the time. And I really look back on Reagan. It's an actor. It's how I pose myself. Followed up by I think it was The second Bush Who was if he just gets through The.
Susan Evans:
[18:56] Any of the meetings he has Or anything without screwing up It's a win I'm like, When did being crappy at your job And not blowing something up Become the level of success For that office Or any office Or any job Because there are workers that are held to a much higher standard than I'd love to have a beer with him. That's my standard. You know, it's like, and so I think everybody who works every day has a much higher standard than a lot of politicians. But because the ads and what we see are crush this person, do this, do this, do this. We're not thinking of the things that actually matter to us. We're going on emotions. If, you know, like I'm five in the schoolyard and you just poked me and I'm going to, you know, that's why I think There's some thinking here that if it's not for me, I'm not going to make, I'm not going to listen to it. So it shuts down a lot of thinking.
Paul Konrardy:
[19:53] Well, in one sense, though, that's where technology has played a really critical role in allowing people to find their people and their echo tamer. And so that once they find that, there's no reason for them to really leave. I mean, algorithmically, almost every social engineered product will lead people to that. And therefore, they won't see opposing voices. is they won't see different facts that could help them think and make their own judgments. But I also have to say, if you look at history, recent history, and you look at the leadership and administrations we've had,
Paul Konrardy:
[20:36] Our society has opened up in different ways with different people raising their hand and being visible, where before the guy at the top could certainly represent one aspect of society, but it really wasn't representing everybody. And now we're at a situation where there's a lot of different hands in the air and there's a lot of, you know, I am who I am kind of situations. And I don't know that who could represent that. I really don't. Who could really represent that legitimately and cause people to really stop and think about people who are different than they are or, you know, not create an other situation. I mean, I think our current administration is really leveraging that in a very harmful way, but I, I mean, how, how, you know, the, the difference between say what Reagan was out there talking about is an American situation. It seems like it's so different from what now is being viewed and held up as the American representation. So it's, as you increase the number of hands in the air and see the different people that are out there, I think we're at, you know, ironically, or not, we're pushing it into our own little fiefdoms of echo chambers and belief structures and people like me.
Paul Konrardy:
[22:05] That's just different. There's far less,
Paul Konrardy:
[22:10] Is it egalitarianism? Is that what I'm looking for? There's far less democracy in that case. It's far less viewing others as part of the whole. It's just viewing them as others. And, you know, that old statement of, well, it takes all kinds to make this world. It seems to me that that is like, oh, that's viewed as such a horrible thing now. Instead of, oh, well, okay, you be you, I'll be me, and we'll get along just fine. And I think that relates to how we think about it, how we think about things, and therefore we don't necessarily think for ourselves then in that context.
Susan Evans:
[22:46] Or we only think about ourselves in that context.
Paul Konrardy:
[22:49] There's that too. There's that too. You know, rampant narcissism is probably a diagnostic choice we can make somewhere.
Jenny Evans:
[23:00] Well, again, this is making me think about, you know, thinking requires curiosity. And Susan, you know, you were just talking about how, I guess, less curious we've become about different people, different ways of thinking, and just sort of shutting it down. And I think a question that we played with at one point, you know, was like, has AI like made us more curious or less curious when, you know, it's to a degree, it's fun that as soon as you have a question, you can find a really quick answer. But susan to your point a lot of times we just will accept that answer without following up or challenging or like even going deeper on that so i think on a level like it allows us to be like curious about more things but are we actually learning deeply about the things that we're curious about or are we just like flipping from thing to thing to thing
Susan Evans:
[24:14] Yeah
Paul Konrardy:
[24:17] I think this is where I can bring my good news thing in because I think there are
Paul Konrardy:
[24:24] Uh, I think we have within ourselves the ability to utilize what we've learned and apply it to something new. And I think we have seen that in real time as we have gone through some of the technology evolutions. I mean, remember back in the day when the phone would ring, well, you know, our younger listeners are going to go, no, but, uh, the phone would ring and you would, you know, you'd always pick it up. Cause you didn't know who it was. and then when you started getting um you know caller id you're like oh i'm gonna be a little bit more selective but then what did we switch to oh we get email oh we open every email oh and we click the links willy-nilly and then we realized oh that's not so good so we started to take that screening filtering idea the latest one or not latest one but um text is another one And it's very, very hard for people to ignore attacks. They feel like they need, a lot of people need to respond to them immediately. And yet here we are again, we're starting to filter that differently than we used to. So every piece of technology that comes along, we learn from previous and there we apply those filters to them. And now with AI, we've got a whole nother generation of where people can call, not even people, machines are calling, sounding like people. And then interacting with people.
Paul Konrardy:
[25:52] And so some of those same skills of filtering and screening are in play because we've learned them from other technologies.
Paul Konrardy:
[26:02] I was just talking to an older gentleman yesterday, and he was saying how he filtered out an AI agent. And he did it by every time they said where they were calling from, they would say, member services. And he's like, well, what memberships? And they never answered the question. So it turned into, oh, you're an AI. Okay. Well, how did he learn that? He didn't just learn that. He learned that from previous experience. And I think that's a thinking process. Maybe it's a filter. Maybe it's screening. I don't know. But I think that individual was thinking when they were having that interaction. So whether we think or not, I don't know if that's necessarily the question, but do we think for ourselves when it comes to big topics? That's another type of question, but I think we do have some skills to continue to learn about applying what we know from other things and apply it to something new. That's not dead.
Susan Evans:
[27:05] No, no, that's a really good point. It's a really good point that we're all learning AI to figure out how it works. Because, you know, we were saying it's like websites. That was a mountain range of, oh, my God, it's changing the world. And it did. And AI is going to do the same thing. And we just haven't been able to figure it out yet. I feel like AI is the Olympics, and we're all just beginning to swim, and we all get really frustrated when we can't get to the other side of the pool. And it's like, we're nowhere near ready for this.
Paul Konrardy:
[27:40] It's a good segue from your Michael Phelps conversation.
Susan Evans:
[27:44] I know. That was stuck in my brain. I heard it when it was coming out of my mouth.
Paul Konrardy:
[27:47] I think you learn. I think you're thinking.
Jenny Evans:
[27:55] Well, I don't know, like going kind of like in another direction that I think there's a lot of people that are intimidated by technology and AI. They're very fearful about AI and what does this mean for my job? What does this mean for my industry? How like it's all changing so fast. How am I going to keep up? And any time, basically, you know, like we hit that fear response, that stress response, that actually shuts down our thinking because now you've got that primitive brain that is just emotional and reactive. And it's hard to be logical. It's hard to reason.
Jenny Evans:
[28:49] I don't know. And when you just think about the speed and magnitude of change that's happening in the world, I feel like... COVID was sort of the tipping point. And, you know, you think like, oh, that's a once in a lifetime massive change. And yet these massive changes just keep coming. And I think, you know, that's something that's sort of like this underlying thing of when there's a lot of unknown, when there's a lot of fear, that does shut down thinking and rationality and we just become reactive.
Susan Evans:
[29:27] Right that's why immigration half the things that any administration does i think is if i can scare you you're going to believe me, and that tells me that nobody's thinking it's like is that true why is that true where'd you get those numbers what the hell is going on back to the authority song by john mellencamp as i question authority i don't think the song lyrics quite go that way because I think it's authority always wins, which I disagreed with when the song came out.
Susan Evans:
[29:56] But, I think you're right that fear stops you from thinking because it's like, I don't want that to happen and I freeze. But every time I've had a situation where it's like, this is going to change, rather than, the fear of shutting it down, I have tried to flip it to, it's going to be the best thing ever. This could be great. This could make me a better person. This could make me shit tons of money. This could be, it's like, what is the opportunity of this change? What are the opportunities in thinking about it? Instead of, if I think about it, bad things will happen. How about if I think about it and question it and wonder what the hell's going on? It may be better for me if I question it. Forget everybody else. If we must forget humanity and just focus on the narcissism, what if thinking makes my family better, makes me better, my neighborhood better? What if I did that? And I don't think people think like that. It's always, oh, this is going to happen to you. No.
Paul Konrardy:
[31:02] Apparently, just like Jen said, when you get into a fearful position, you're not thinking. You're not thinking about those possibilities. You're thinking quite the opposite. You're painting your brush of everything is going to go down the toilet.
Susan Evans:
[31:16] Isn't that interesting though.
Paul Konrardy:
[31:18] Yeah it's a fascinating human human trait and those people who can get themselves out of that and can think like what you're talking about susan i think are those folks that are going to be more successful and more resilient to what the changes that are going to come because let's face it ai is here it's not going to go away we are going to see it and we have already seen it implemented in so many things of what we do and it's going to continue to increase in that so if you're fearful of it then suddenly you've got your filter set to go oh my gosh change bad right instead of change Well, I don't know what it's going to be. It could be bad. It could be good.
Susan Evans:
[31:59] The world's your oyster when you don't know.
Paul Konrardy:
[32:01] Well, yeah. And that's, you know, if you're totally ignorant, that's even a better place to be. But where I'm going with this is like, I know I just got off a meeting and we were talking about AI and its impact on healthcare and how they're experimenting where I live with implementing some in-room AI assistance to fill nursing roles. Particularly where it has to do with like medication um administration and i'm like whoa that's that's kind of like okay you're hooked up to an av you're in a lot of pain and you're saying out loud i'm in a pain and then the ai agent can give you a little squirt of some happy juice yeah
Paul Konrardy:
[32:44] Who's watching that, you know, who, what's built in to protect us from that? So instantly I'm kind of going down this path of like, Ooh, that's not a good idea. But then I'm thinking also I got to seriously consider reconsider that because frankly, if the patient has, you know, let's just say the agent AI agent has all the different necessary parameters in place. That could be a very positive experience. patient, not only are they going to get relief from pain, but it could be they're not having the nurse can be doing what they're doing or should be doing instead of, you know, with someone else who needs more critical need than that. I don't know. That's a judgment call on a lot of things. But rather than immediately knee jerking, no, that's bad. It's more what you just said, Susan, in that, well, what if this turned out to be really positive? But if this was a really more joyful experience overall, you know, your healing could benefit from that. So it's going to be everywhere.
Susan Evans:
[33:50] It's going to be everywhere. Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[33:52] It is everywhere.
Susan Evans:
[33:53] I had a conversation about a week and a half ago with somebody. And I was talking about, because we don't have kids anymore. What do we have to save for in the last 15 years of our life if something untoward happens? How expensive is this going to be? I said, oh, it won't be as expensive as it is now because robots will be doing this. And it wasn't a joke. It was a very serious thing, which, like you said, Paul, AI is going to be doing a lot of this anyway. And it's already being put in place. So the robotics via ai is almost you can see where this is coming so it won't be as expensive because things will be in a room that will automatically dispense that will automatically do so i don't have to pay a person to come in and do it, as it was really interesting and i was like, wow and i mean in terms of thinking i was like okay am i going to be like the guy in the movie who has that little white robot following me right yeah, it was really i was like this is great And then I was like, yeah, but we're supposed to have flying cars by now, too. And that hasn't happened. So we'll wait until we see. But, yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[34:58] Well, it's being prepared for that possibility that I think is part of the challenge that we're all kind of alluding to. And I think, Jen, you talked about that. It's like when fear gets in the way, you don't think about the possibilities. You don't stay open to those possibilities because it's all fear-driven. But that fear can be driven in a lot of ways. is existential fear of losing your job or existential fear of no one's going to really look at this. It's going to be a robot that's deciding this, or there's a death board involved, or, you know, all that kind of craziness that really generates a lot of fear. But maybe the question is, do we not think? Why do we fear so much? So maybe that changes the conversation a little bit.
Susan Evans:
[35:43] Well, but I think that's a really good point there, because fear, uncertainty, all of these things, like I don't want to think about the future, it makes me nervous, da-da-da-da-da, rather than, those are all negative thoughts. And I will go back to Michael Phelps, where it was, how do you get over that natural inclination? And we talked about this yesterday, Paul. One of the things he was told was, every time you go through a door, say a positive affirmation about yourself and what you're doing. Every time you go through a door, this is the bathroom, the closet, the front door, the car door, any door you go through, say something positive about yourself. And I thought that because at that level, there's something that we were talking about this, that athletes at this level, the mental game is what is, is how you win. Because they're all so extraordinarily fit. And at that level, it's amazing. I'm watching the world pop. It's like the ball control these guys have is, I mean, I'm going to backspin it yet. It's going to go forward. It's like, you know, it's just amazing. But that mental game they all have at that level is something that does not trickle down to the other, you know, 8 billion of us. It is just, it is not there. But it's really interesting because I think.
Susan Evans:
[37:05] To make sure that doesn't happen, you do have to think, wait, let me think about this. And you have to go back to that. I have to take time to do this. And I may not know the answer, but then I might use AI to say, this is what's going on. What am I not thinking about? Now you're going to tell me something that I may not be thinking about that I should think about that at least that first draft of a thought bubble can go somewhere.
Jenny Evans:
[37:31] I mean, yeah, Susan, when you're like, well, what is the answer? Like, how do we overcome that fear response? Like, through training, that is possible. But training requires effort over time. And then coming back to, like, our default is we're hardwired to be lazy. You know, like, you really have to want
Jenny Evans:
[37:56] To do it.
Paul Konrardy:
[37:59] Is this where the graph comes in that's that has like one axis is effort the other is time and then you see this arrow going up is that where that's where we should be bringing that in you're absolutely right about that it's like a why were we built that way do you have any idea why we were built
Jenny Evans:
[38:18] It's all survival. I mean and just going back to
Paul Konrardy:
[38:23] Is that an energy saving technique or what is the lazy part?
Jenny Evans:
[38:27] Yeah. So way, way, way back in the day, energy, like our ancestors spent a lot of energy. They were very physical. They did the hunting. They did the fighting. They did the fleeing. They did the gathering, the procreating. And food as an energy source was not a guarantee. And so the body evolved to want to conserve as much energy as possible, both physically as well as psychologically. And so the advanced part of our brain, when it developed over the primitive part of our brain, really increased our need for calories and for energy. So our brain is also evolved that,
Jenny Evans:
[39:21] The default setting for our brain is the amygdala and the reptilian, because it doesn't require a lot of thinking. It's very easy. The neocortex, the more advanced recent part of our brain, is not the default setting. And so you have to first even realize that sort of like that's not your default. And then you have to have the commitment of how do I train this part of my brain to come online more often? And it's not a quick fix. It takes time. It's difficult. And so you have these opposing parts of the brain and the body. And I think that's why, like, as a species, we've only evolved so far. And then we just keep repeating history. We just keep repeating mistakes. Because, like, there is a biological limitation that unless we were to remove that part of the brain, like, we're always just going to get stuck there. Right. How's that for optimism?
Susan Evans:
[40:37] But, you know, it's interesting because I think I have two thoughts that went through my head. It's kind of like crocodiles that have stayed for millions of years because they know how to conserve energy. They know when to attack. They're happy to wait. And it's like, I've eaten now. I'm going to sit on the beach here or the rock, and just digest for the next three and a half days. Nazi. But that is why when you say reptilian, I thought, yes, I have seen that with the crocodiles. But I think we're also kind of the same way in that we can just keep going this way. It goes back to, I need time to think a little deeper about what I want to do, what I'm aware of, that kind of thing, rather than just going through the motions of what I know. I think people tend to be more I want to be more safe. And I think the adventurous curiosity, wondrous part of things is where the education comes in. And I'm personally looking for a time when being smart is back in vogue again rather than...
Jenny Evans:
[41:56] Okay, that's what I was just thinking too of like it depends on who you're hanging around with of like we're all so hardwired to really want to fit in because if you got ostracized from your community, that was a death sentence because you couldn't do all those things yourself. And so sometimes like maybe thinking too much or thinking differently than your cohort was something dangerous. It was a liability. And I'm even thinking too of like how aging people you know kind of comes into this i think like when you're younger you are more curious you are more open to possibility and then you see this happen a lot of like the older older older you get you just kind of get stuck in your ways and you you know you refuse to see anything different you know you're like yeah i don't know i'm even finding this with like ai of like i'm right on the cusp Like, do I really need to learn that? Because I'm only going to be in the job market for a little bit longer. Like, I'm good.
Susan Evans:
[43:05] Oh, no, you want to.
Paul Konrardy:
[43:07] You want to.
Susan Evans:
[43:08] I'd be only for health purposes, because every time I walk into my doctor, I'm like, I'm recording this and you know it's being uploaded to AI afterwards. And I take all of my stuff from the MyCharge or whatever form it is. And I'm like, here's what they said. Here were the results. Tell me what to do. And it's not the end all be all, but mostly it's what questions should I ask? when I send my little email follow-up. AI for health, of what questions to ask the doc you're seeing, is amazing. So you must continue to use it. It's like, that piece for me is amazing.
Paul Konrardy:
[43:46] I think it goes beyond health. I think it goes far beyond health. It goes, it's just understanding how this world is going to work. And when you have that basic knowledge, then you can, like I mentioned earlier, you'll have skills that you can apply to different things it's like when you are let's just say you're going to a bank teller, you're driving up and it's an AI agent that's there. If you don't know how to prompt that correctly, you're going to spend an awful lot of time, more time explaining what you want and need than if you understood how that technology works and can be very articulate with what you're asking. So that's just one kind of example, a drive up. Okay. But that includes any kind of customer service you're going to get from a phone call or a chat or anything else because that entry level is always going to be from now on leaning in to AI agents doing that work. So when you make an appointment with your doctor, when you make an appointment with your financial advisor, when you make an appointment with anybody, those screening questions are not going to be taken by a low-level person. It's going to be taken by an agent.
Susan Evans:
[44:53] Well, you get that. Yeah, that's happening now.
Paul Konrardy:
[44:57] Yeah. When it's like press one, press two. But my argument here is if you don't understand how to interact with AI, those are going to be painful experiences until you do learn those skills. Yeah. Just like that gentleman I was talking about who has learned how to talk to a telemarketer of sorts or a telephone agent and figure out if this is really worth their time or not. So, we learn these skills, and if you don't learn AI skills, then you're going to be left behind, just like every other thing. You're going to be stuck back with your newspaper.
Susan Evans:
[45:33] Well, I think what's interesting is that it's almost like we have training wheels on our bike right now with the press one, press two. Do you want to balance? Yes. No. Your balance is, I mean, that's AI right there.
Paul Konrardy:
[45:49] Yeah. All of it is.
Susan Evans:
[45:50] I mean, and so any of that stuff you do with your health care, your bank, we can call you back because your wait is 25 minutes to talk to an airline person. You know, you're like, okay, I'm going to plug my number in and you'll call me back and I won't lose my place in line. That's AI. So we're all kind of on training wheels for this anyway. And it's just.
Paul Konrardy:
[46:10] It doesn't mean you have to be an expert, though. You don't have to be an expert. You know, I think, Jen, in your case, you're an expert on most things that you had to put your mind on. But maybe you don't need to be an expert. Maybe you just need to be dabbling in enough to understand what you need to do. That might be enough.
Jenny Evans:
[46:28] Well, because when I was thinking about this question, I was like, I have a different reaction to this whole change towards AI. And I'm wondering if other people feel this way, too, that as it relates to their jobs and their industry, do they have certain ways of feeling about this versus just using it in their personal life and how it makes things convenient? Because one of those is a have to. I'm being forced to have to do things differently versus, you know, using it in your personal life. You're using it selectively in ways that feel really helpful and useful to you. Like that's a get to. Whereas I think in just in some areas of your life, it feels like a have to. And that affects your learning and your curiosity much differently.
Paul Konrardy:
[47:25] It does, it does. But I think we have a human... Maybe you could answer this better than I can, but I think we do have a human trait of wanting to figure out ways around things or ways to make it more efficient for us. Maybe that's the lazy G, but it's like, how do I, how do I figure this out enough so that it can work on my behalf?
Susan Evans:
[47:48] Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[47:48] Or I figured out the workaround versus following through what they're telling me to do. So i don't know if that's is that a is that a sign of thinking or is that a sign of trying to you know leverage it i don't know and i want to think about is like one of the big things i do is i set up ads for people right for their digital marketing that's one aspect of what i do and when i'm doing that that the whole platform has changed dramatically if i had not been going along with this i would walk into this going what the hell has happened because i would not understand how the ai enhancements that they have built in work and if you don't understand how they work you don't know how to make it as efficient and cost efficient and effective as if you didn't because it's it's just a completely different world than it used to be and that's in every industry is experiencing this, I swear. Every industry. And even if you think you're not being impacted on it, you sure as hell are, you just don't see where it is directly. Maybe the Pope, I don't know.
Paul Konrardy:
[49:06] I don't know. There might be some jobs that are rarefied and they're not, but it's a fascinating world we live in. I'm very encouraged by it, but I do think getting back to the core question about when do we stop thinking for ourselves or thinking in general? I think it depends on how curious you are and what you're trying to accomplish out of life what are the goals you're trying to accomplish it's funny how that boils back to a lot of business principles too isn't it um but if you're if you're trying to find the easiest way through and you don't want to think you could get through life people do it all the time but how is that how successful is that life in the grand scheme of things. How healthy are they? How old do they treat people? Where's the morality in their decisions? Those are things that I think do.
Susan Evans:
[50:04] It's interesting.
Paul Konrardy:
[50:05] I know how to shut down this conversation. I love it when I shut down conversations.
Susan Evans:
[50:09] I think Jen and I are going, yes. Yes, and absorbing. And thinking, interestingly enough, about what you're saying. Because I think I don't think there's, I have never thought there's just one answer. So I don't think it's, oh, it's AI doing it. It's our education system. It's our political system. No, it isn't. It's society. It's this, it's that. It's the perfect storm or middling storm or light rain of all of it, you know, combined to...
Susan Evans:
[50:39] Push something forward. Because I don't think it's one thing. You can push something forward and, you know, there's kind of a domino effect, but sometimes the dominoes run out and something else starts. And so it's just, it's never one thing. It's several things. And I think in people who don't, when did we stop thinking for ourselves? I don't know that we've stopped, but we've lessened it we're accepting more from computers and screens than we used to and we.
Susan Evans:
[51:13] The powers that be all 27 of these companies i made up that number all these companies are running the algorithm for us forcing us to stop thinking for ourselves and reinforcing that how we think is perfect. And so I'm just going to stop questioning people because I'm clearly right, you know, or they're clearly right. And I agree with that. So I'm going to stop questioning because I'm being told I'm right. And that the minute somebody starts saying, yeah, you're right. What you believe in is absolutely correct. It is a hundred percent. You're backed by God. You're backed by Buddha. You're backed by anybody, anything you think. I question it. It's like nothing. is like that. That's why science questions itself all the time. It's like what we knew 5,000 years ago isn't what we know today because I questioned it. And I thought, yeah, you said that, but I don't believe it and I'm going to prove you wrong. And we don't do that anymore because we've got these algorithms, like you said, Paul, that tell us, no, you're right. You're absolutely right. Don't question anything further because if you do, you may take me down.
Jenny Evans:
[52:21] Well, I think that you hit on another aspect of this, of sometimes we're discouraged from questioning because I think like politically it's become like, oh, if you're going to question this, then it means you're anti whatever I am. Yeah. You know, like, well, then that shuts down curiosity and thinking right there.
Paul Konrardy:
[52:46] It's a different mechanism, though, but it is exactly what you're talking about. But it's fear causing you not to respond.
Susan Evans:
[52:55] Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[52:56] And that's like shutting down any kind of intellectual conversation.
Susan Evans:
[53:01] Anybody who says that, though, if you aren't for me, you're against me, it's like, well, right back at you. There's this really weird, I'm going to tell you what I believe, which suddenly makes it sound like it must be the word of whomever's on high. This bullshit of, no, it's rude, it's arrogant, it's narcissistic to say that. And how dare you? When anybody says, well, if you're not for me, you're against me. I'm like, okay, well, that's bullshit. And you're operating out of fucking fear when you say that. So you're scared, you're freaking out, you're doing all of this stuff. Because no one who is a confident adult human being is going to say, if you're for me, you're against me. If you're not with me, you're against me. It's the dumbest thing I've ever started hearing that running around in the universe. I'm like, well, that's just stupid. It excludes every idea out there. And the best idea that could have saved you, made you better, done all of these things, saved your family, made you money, made you the happiest person in the world. You just shut down. What the hell is wrong with you? I mean, I just, it drives me insane. Not that you could tell by that outburst. Jesus.
Paul Konrardy:
[54:22] There's been this, this keeps popping in my head throughout this conversation. And I think we're in this transitional period that I think we're responding to in a question, are people thinking for themselves or not? Or when do we stop doing that? And i it's hidden figures do you remember the movie hidden figures and and i forget the name of the character but she was a computer they called her a computer and i love that because they definitely that's what they did they computed and she was um put together i forget the re-entry of
Paul Konrardy:
[55:00] Calculations yeah yeah and then was whoever the astronaut was is it john glenn or whatever They had this IBM computer that came in, and they were really pushing this computer's results. And the astronaut themselves was like, well, I don't really trust these numbers, so I want this character who's the computer to run those numbers. And it wasn't until she got hers done, and had actually done it for a few more decimal points than the computer had done, that he would believe that that was the case, and then he was going to go up in the air and risk his life. So I just think of that cusp, because at the end of that, all the computers were replaced by machine computers. I think that's the fear that everybody has with AI, is that this same thing is going to happen. When, at the same time, that computer was thinking as she was computing these things.
Susan Evans:
[55:53] Mm-hmm.
Paul Konrardy:
[55:55] But how long did that take and what was the chance of an error and could a machine do it better? I don't know the answer to those questions, but I know we can see what's happened. That role is no longer a pivotal part of our high end thinking from an organization like NASA. They don't rely on humans for that anymore. So it's like this evolution that we're going through to an extent, but that doesn't mean that that person who was the computer at the time doing the calculations is in thinking. I'm sorry, Catherine?
Susan Evans:
[56:36] Catherine Johnson.
Paul Konrardy:
[56:37] Thank you. Thank you. That was driving me crazy because that person's name should be said all the time. So, thank you for teaching me that one. I don't know what I'm trying to say here other than that there is some evolution that's going on in how we are interacting with thinking and what we used to have to use our brains for that we don't have to. But that doesn't mean that Katherine Johnson doesn't think anymore. I think she's still alive. I think she passed recently. But you know she contributed other things because she was still using that little nugget of hers and was thinking through a lot of things. So, I don't know. I think that's changed on a level that I think we're all adapting to.
Susan Evans:
[57:22] Yeah. Well, and honestly, when I was growing up in my covered wagon, it was do math in your head, and then calculators came out. And it was, well, kids will never be able to do math again or add. And so I think with every new technology, there is something that either enhances thinking or lessens it or maybe takes that little functionality out of your brain so you can move something else more important in there. It's like, we hope. Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[57:57] But as Jen's saying, we're naturally inclined to be more lazy about it. So I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.
Susan Evans:
[58:05] Let's be smart about how we're lazy.
Paul Konrardy:
[58:10] Yeah i like that
Jenny Evans:
[58:11] Idea plus that if we're smart about how we're lazy we don't have to feel so guilty about it too yeah
Susan Evans:
[58:17] Exactly i've planned this laziness on Saturday yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[58:24] Well this is good i mean i think we could keep like spiraling down into so many different layers But I don't know, Susan, I think you said it very well of like, and this is with anything. It's never one thing. It is all of the things. And we are in like a major state of transition. And it's going to be interesting to see, you know, where this takes us and how well we adapt and how we choose to use the tools is the more important thing. Thing if if our brains are still working by then
Paul Konrardy:
[59:04] I would just encourage you to not try. I wouldn't put it into its own little bucket and put a lid on it. When it comes to AI and working with it, it's our future. That's my little spiel for not giving up on learning new things.
Jenny Evans:
[59:28] My future's on a beach, so I'm not going to make that.
Susan Evans:
[59:33] Oh no you will when is the tide coming in when can i see the best uh snorkeling conditions when can i that's that's when is.
Paul Konrardy:
[59:42] That when's that star constellation going to be over so i
Paul Konrardy:
[59:46] Can lay.
Paul Konrardy:
[59:47] On the beach and watch it
Susan Evans:
[59:48] Yeah yeah give me the the next nine month cycle of constellations in the Southern Hemisphere. Good, you got it.
Paul Konrardy:
[59:59] Guys we're thinking right now, oh my God.
Susan Evans:
[1:00:04] Excellent who and then we're gonna have to email each other for another topic next time yeah yep thanks good talking all right yay this is cool, this was great excellent i don't think there's show notes this time.
Jenny Evans:
[1:00:23] Because we'll just ask people to think for themselves i'm not just gonna give you
Paul Konrardy:
[1:00:27] That's the show note that's a show note
Jenny Evans:
[1:00:29] Figure it out.
Susan Evans:
[1:00:32] Yeah, Jen, we're not going to give you notes. Jesus Christ, think of your own.
Paul Konrardy:
[1:00:37] I love that.
Susan Evans:
[1:00:38] Oh, God, excellent. Bye.
Jenny Evans:
[1:00:42] See you guys.
[1:00:43] Before you go, a friendly reminder that the people on this podcast are curious, not certified. Nothing you just heard is professional legal, financial, or business advice. It was a conversation, a good one, but still just a conversation. And if something they said makes you want to rethink your entire business model, maybe you should sleep on it first and then call someone with a license. The hosts bring the ideas and you bring the judgment. And if it all works out, they'd love to hear about it. If it doesn't, well, then they've never met you. All content is copyright monsters of curiosity and may not be reproduced or distributed without permission.
