Jenny Evans:
[0:16] Hey, it's Monsters of Curiosity. We are so glad you're here.
Jenny Evans:
[0:22] Also who's here is Susan Evans and Paul Konrardy, my fellow monsters. The question for today is why the hell does change feel so much harder than it used to. Meaning, I feel like since the pandemic, basically, there has been one mega change after another, after another, after another. In businesses, it's showing up in so many mergers, reorganizations, restructurings, AI rollouts. I mean, it's just, it's got like the pace and scale of change has gotten completely ridiculous. So I kind of wanted to explore today, why is change so flipping hard? Even if you just decide like, you know what, I just want to start eating more vegetables. Even a change like that can be insanely difficult.
Paul Konrardy:
[1:33] Great example, frankly, because good luck not getting sick.
Jenny Evans:
[1:39] Yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[1:40] Okay, bad example.
Jenny Evans:
[1:42] Bad example.
Susan Evans:
[1:44] Yet a good example of change that we are being forced to keep up with in track in this country because some people aren't paying attention to the right things.
Jenny Evans:
[1:53] Yeah, yeah. I mean
Susan Evans:
[1:55] I think that's change being forced on us.
Jenny Evans:
[1:57] Yeah. Are you noticing that your clients are struggling and just like having to deal with more and more change and adaptation and agility?
Paul Konrardy:
[2:09] Yes. While the half-life of knowledge now has just shrunk considerably because of the...
Paul Konrardy:
[2:18] I mean information age was one milestone you could look at and say okay yeah we all have websites now now it's it's so much different because the technology that's available to consumers is so different than it was and so user behavior customer behavior client behavior employee behaviors all are changing um on so many levels so yeah change is everywhere and i think it's because we can't keep up necessarily with everything that's why some people are dropping out because it is hard change is hard um but it does seem like it's harder than it used to be maybe it's an age thing i don't know but i think it has more to do with just what we are being bombarded with and the ability to get information is so much faster now and but then you've got all kinds of different filters you got to apply that we've talked about in previous episodes so it's yeah no change is so hard and i've seen it in my clients um when i have to send an update about one platform every two weeks because the changes are going on and they're major decision points Yeah, change is getting harder. It's getting harder.
Jenny Evans:
[3:35] Yeah. What about you, Susan?
Susan Evans:
[3:38] I was going to say I would echo that, and I think it's getting harder because to Paul's point, It used to be you could choose, there weren't so many options to reach people, talk to people, or have people find and reach you. And so now not only are you flinging arrows out, arrows are flinging back in at you. And if you choose to, I don't want to, Paul said drop out. I know people who are dropping out. I also know people who are like, I'm going to take this at a slower pace.
Susan Evans:
[4:16] Which doesn't necessarily mean the pace is slowing. You're just falling behind. And so when you have to then catch up, it's like, I knew I wouldn't like this. And so everything becomes harder and justifies why you should never have changed in the first place. And that's what I find with a lot of people when there is change happening, they put it off until they couldn't. And now you're behind the eight ball you've got to build a skyscraper when before you could have built a cute two-story colonial you know it's like and added on to it and i think that is where i see people get very frustrated um not just business but personal fronts it's like the more you put something off the harder it is to then change which as i said confirms with you that you never should have done it in the first place. And now I'm super angry and I hate everything because you're frustrated with why you have to do it. But I think it's interesting that when people opt out or slow down, they don't realize that it doesn't mean what they're opting out of is also slowing down.
Jenny Evans:
[5:34] Yeah, so true. Like, I'm going to move into the slow lane. Yeah, but you're going to get yanked back into the fast lane at some point in time, and you're going to get your butt kicked.
Susan Evans:
[5:45] Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[5:46] What brought this topic to mind, Jen? What was the catalyst?
Jenny Evans:
[5:51] I have noticed in the last year, so whenever anybody reaches out to me to do a speak and engagement, we have a discovery call. And I just ask them, like, okay, tell me what is happening inside of your business. Like, what is creating the stress, the pain points? What are the problems that you're trying to solve? And literally 100 of people the very first thing they do is they start talking about the changes that everybody's been through and it's big changes, on top of small changes so it's it's one after the other and oftentimes like one hasn't completed before the next one comes and so, people's change capacity. I mean, like, businesses have gone way past people's change capacity. And I think one of the big things that they're missing is so often the approach to change is, well.
Jenny Evans:
[7:03] Let's just give people more communication. Let's have more town halls. Like, let's just give them more logical reasons about the change and why it's going to be great and how to do it. But what they don't understand is there is something massive that is happening biologically in response to change that's actually like slamming the front door, of people's prefrontal cortex of the logic and the reasoning to be able to understand that. And so.
Jenny Evans:
[7:40] Leaders and organizations just really see it as like, why are people not getting on board? Why are they resisting this? Why are they so negative about it? What they don't understand is we are hardwired to freak out at any change whatsoever because, to our primitive brain, the amygdala, like change means like you don't know what's going on. There's the unexpected. There's possible danger. You're going to have to start exerting energy in a way that you're not used to. And so the logical part of our brain just shuts off. And that's not a personality flaw. That is not a mindset problem. That is biology. And so I think leaders, organizations, even as individuals ourselves, don't really understand the most effective way to try to make change easier to deal with and to adapt to.
Susan Evans:
[8:48] Mm-hmm.
Paul Konrardy:
[8:51] It sounds a lot like educational theory, doesn't it? I mean, like the way that you educate when you're educating children, for example, you keep their brain development in mind as to what they can grasp at appropriate ages. I think that's part of it. I'm not a teacher or an educator, but I have so many in my life that I've asked questions about it because, you know, I'm curious. But it seems that as adults, there is also a, what are people capable of? What is it? Does their brain have the elasticity it needs, the flexibility to understand where we're going? And maybe times they don't have the end goal. So how do you deal with that ambiguity when there's got to be process change to reach where that goal is eventually going to be, but you don't have it right now?
Jenny Evans:
[9:43] Yeah. I mean, my philosophy, is that you have to start with the biology of how the brain works because you can't ask people to cognitively, understand anything when that part of cognitive understanding becomes unavailable so
Jenny Evans:
[10:07] I like to think of it as like there's a front door and there's a back door. So the front door is the front part of your brain, like the neocortex, the logic, the reasoning that understands communication, strategy, logically understands that change is a natural part of life. But then there's the back door. And the back door is your amygdala, your stress response. And that, you know, any time change, uncertainty, ambiguity happens, that front door slams shut. And when that happens, again, people are like, I'm going to send another email. I'm going to explain it more. We're going to send more communication. And like all that mail is just piling up at the front door. Like the door is closed. It is not coming in.
Jenny Evans:
[10:54] So what I like to help people understand is you have to come in through the back door, and then once you're inside you can actually unlock the front door of how do you actually put that amygdala that back door at ease so it doesn't, shut and slam that front door in the first place i mean yesterday i did a speaking event for orange power or sorry orange county fire authority, and the person that was after me was talking specifically about change.
Jenny Evans:
[11:30] And once again, like, it was a great presentation, but it was all about, here's communication and strategy of like, people can't hear the communication and strategy when they're afraid. I might not have a job. I might have to relocate. AI is going to replace my job. You are just emotional and reactive. You cannot absorb it effectively.
Susan Evans:
[11:56] That's so true. I used to do change management with a CHRO friend of mine. She would get headhunted and move to company, company, make a change. And we would have this conversation of there's a RIF, there's an M&A, or we're just doing something different to reorganize the company because there's a new CEO who wants to make a mark on something or whatever it is. And we would have that very conversation of the minute you say we're going to change something I'm on LinkedIn changing my resume because it means you're going to fire me and so we would always say
Susan Evans:
[12:33] We're going to have to approach this very carefully and have, you know, have conversations with people about what do you think would look good? Because if I if I have some buy in into the change, I have more control over what's happening. Not complete control, but it's better than the announcement that does this, because you're right. I've walked into so many situations that were crisis situations brought on by leadership itself, saying we have intellectual capital walking out the door because I made this announcement that we're going to do an M&A or we're buying this. And so this is what's going to happen. And people think that they're going to be replaced. So everything he said was exactly what you said. It bounced off the front door. It's like, I don't care what you say. You're lying to me now. And it goes back to one of our conversations of trust and leadership. So there were onion layers of problems with this, but it became that I can't hear you because I'm on LinkedIn right now.
Susan Evans:
[13:33] It was really, it's really fascinating that primal fear of you may be getting a promotion and running a division, but I can't hear you because I don't trust you. And this change makes me nervous. And in some of these business changes, it's not one thing, it's 17 things you have to deal with, which it makes it worse. And so it's not just one thing. It's like, not only is there overload, but now I'm nervous as well. So I'm dealing with two things. And so I think change in business is, It kind of echoes the grief chart where you go down and then back up. It's the same emotional reaction to it. But I do completely agree that you don't say it right. You've lost them all from moment one. And now you're just climbing out of a hole.
Paul Konrardy:
[14:29] You might as well call that the shut the front door.
Susan Evans:
[14:32] Yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[14:34] Paul, that is brilliant. I'm going to have to use that.
Paul Konrardy:
[14:41] Well, that's what's happening, right? This leads me to believe or to think about what are effective ways that you can, if you're a leader, what are effective ways that you can help people?
Jenny Evans:
[14:54] Great question. I mean, yeah, to Susan's point, like there's there's a lot of factors to consider and there's a lot of ways to do this. But I think even just acknowledging that people are having a stress response to this. And even if it's a good thing, like you mentioned, Susan, you're going to get a promotion. That's still stressful. There's still a lot of unknown.
Susan Evans:
[15:18] It's a change.
Jenny Evans:
[15:19] Yeah. So in the research that I've been doing of like, how do we help people, go through the back door, there are some things that are so ridiculously simple that really make a big difference. One of the things I just, it's actually usually called like, just name it.
Jenny Evans:
[15:46] We rarely ever actually assign the specific name to the emotion that we're having. We just know, like, we're overwhelmed. But researchers out of UCLA, and this has been, like, one of the most replicated studies, is that when people are upset or stimulated or exposed to change, If you have them just specifically name the emotion that they're feeling, the amygdala quiets down and the prefrontal cortex is more activated, which allows you to be more logic and thoughtful and really opens that front door. And I've even used this with a lot of my coaching clients when they're, trying to process whether it's like, you know, being frustrated or stuck or, afraid or what it is of like, let's specifically name what you're feeling. It's like the monster that you think is in the closet. Like if you don't really know what it is, you can imagine all kinds of things. But as soon as you shine a light on it, you're like, oh, that's actually nothing. But yeah, it changes how our brain processes information.
Paul Konrardy:
[17:14] That's like a CBT technique or cognitive behavior therapy technique where you name the emotion or what is the emotion you're feeling and what does that emotion want you to do? It's kind of that take a step back and you put words on it versus the emotional feeling. It would engage that other part of your brain. So that's fascinating.
Jenny Evans:
[17:41] Yeah. I mean, so even for yourself, if you're freaking out or finding yourself being resistant or like to just be like, well, what exactly is it that I'm feeling right now? Or if you're a leader or a manager, like having these conversations with your people of like, how are you feeling about what's happening? And that also like really opens the door for conversation. Also makes people feel really seen and heard. Because people are like, I have no control over what's happening.
Susan Evans:
[18:16] Right.
Paul Konrardy:
[18:19] It feels like more and more there's more of that. So that's why change feels harder. Because we just are losing our perceived control all the time.
Susan Evans:
[18:30] Well, I think that's one of the things where... My friend, Deb, we would talk about, we should tell people why it's happening, not what is happening. It's kind of like when you're talking to your kids, you don't say we're going to dinner. It's like, I bet you're hungry. We should go to dinner. Yeah. And it's like this, give me the why before you tell me what, um, because it, it gives me comfort in, it's like, okay, I understand that. And it doesn't have to be everything, but it's something at the beginning. And we would always, you don't oversell it. You give a little bit of logic. You talk about, here's what we're doing after the why. We're going to do this. And then we also would say, here's what's not going to change. Because if you address what's not going to change right up front, it is easier to stop the crazy conspiracy theories that begin in silence where you're like, how did you get there?
Susan Evans:
[19:39] You hear some things and you're like, that's what you really thought. That is the rumor going around. How did that happen? It's like, because nobody, you may have, I was on a call this morning where there's a rumor going around about expansion and what that looks like. And they said the staff thinks it's going to be this. And they were coming up with all of this really quite ridiculous thing that had already been told to them, it's not going to happen.
Susan Evans:
[20:10] But it came up in a memo as sort of a, well, let's not forget this. It's kind of in the library three to five years down the line, but they didn't, even though it says that it came up again. And it was a thing that scared them before. So even though it's not a topic now, it took over the entire thing and was part of a strategy session where they're like, well, we don't even want to do this. And we're like, No one wants to do that. But they have wasted enormous amounts of energy and time and fear and worry and time on LinkedIn and all of this for absolutely nothing. And so I think in change, too,
Susan Evans:
[20:47] For the people it's happening to, here are things you have every right to ask. So you can get those things back and say, why is this happening? Walk me through it again. And I know it's been five times, but I want to hear it every week at the same time. So I know it's not changing. I mean, and so there's that cadence of, I'm going to say it again. We always said to leadership, you're going to say it while it happens. And then you're going to confirm it for probably four to six months after it happens. And you're going to want to absolutely hit your head against the wall at week two of this. Yeah. Not, we're not even at the six month mark yet. It's like, but people need to hear that. And that is your job. It's like rules. It's like teaching polite rules to kids. You have to eat with silverware. You know, it's like, you're going to say that from age of two to five every single day.
Jenny Evans:
[21:36] Actually, I can say even at 26 years, you're still going to be telling your kid, you know, you could use a fork with that, right?
Susan Evans:
[21:44] Longer in some cases.
Jenny Evans:
[21:48] Susan, I'm so glad you brought this up of naming what is not going to change because our brain really is a prediction machine. It likes to have data so that it can predict what's going to happen in the future because it's just kind of creating safety. Um and so if you know what's coming that gives your brain some um, some just like some data and some certainty so that yeah you're not coming up with all of these crazy scenarios so as much as it is important to be communicating like here are the changes to your point, here's what is not going to be changing
Susan Evans:
[22:32] Yeah.
Susan Evans:
[22:34] The other thing that helps it depends on what it it doesn't depend on what the business is i'm thinking absolutely customer facing right now but um in any situation at any level it's it's you the change is coming um But how, in an employee's or a team's point of view, how are ways to improve how this change happens? Because in change, we always say this is the time to bring it up. Because if you never liked how you handed someone cash before, maybe we put it in an envelope and hand it to them now. It's like, we're going to change how we deal with customers. We're going to change how we deal with our B2B customers. We're going to change all of this. And in this now, what else should we be thinking of? And that now gives me control over the implementation of that change, which then makes it a little easier to accept. Not in all cases.
Jenny Evans:
[23:41] Yeah. But easier is better than not.
Susan Evans:
[23:44] Yeah, than I hate you. I think it's really interesting because we've also found in change, sometimes it's the reason employees were looking to leave anyway. Or someone said, I don't want to do this. And it was like, okay, okay. However this worked, it usually works out for the better for those employees who are like, I don't like this. I'm out of here. They, not all cases, but we have found in a few, in several times at various levels, someone said, this change isn't for me. And it's like, maybe you're thinking that anyway. Not all the time, but had that happen. And it's like, that's okay.
Jenny Evans:
[24:31] Yeah. Okay, so last week I'm having a pre-event call because I'm doing a virtual keynote with a very large company next week. They have just been through a merger and just all kind of like they're just, and I'm not saying like this is the only place where this happens, but I see things just, this is one of the things I see companies do that is just so bad is, What they told me was, you cannot say the following words. You cannot mention the following things. Reorganization, merger, relocation. And there was like two other things. And I was like, guess what? Not talking about the thing doesn't mean that people aren't still talking about and super concerned about the thing. I mean, like...
Susan Evans:
[25:32] It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Jenny Evans:
[25:34] You know, and it's like, if you, if you have trauma.
Paul Konrardy:
[25:39] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Voldemort.
Jenny Evans:
[25:43] Yeah. It's like, if you have trauma, hey, guess what I should do? I should just shove it down and not process it and not, and I'll just put a seal on top of it. And if it doesn't exist or I can't see it.
Jenny Evans:
[25:55] Okay, so, again, another one of these brain things is that, when we've lost something, and I'm going to have to talk about like a physical object, but you've lost your identity, you've lost your role, you've lost your sense of control. In that sort of triggers the stress response and your brain just like opens a tab on this where it's just like it's giving it a whole bunch of attention where, if it just goes unnamed and unprocessed it's just like this open running tab, that what research shows is if you simply, acknowledge and name what you've lost it closes that stress loop and allows itself to play itself But so many organizations, run headlong in the opposite direction. It's not only we're not going to talk about that, but we're also going to discourage it because it feels like it feels like you're not moving on if we're talking about what we lost.
Jenny Evans:
[27:05] You have to grieve what you lost. It's how your brain effectively processes information. And when you do that, that goes in through the back door and allows that front door to open. I mean, so it's the exact opposite of what so many organizations are doing. We're not going to talk about it and you're not allowed to say these words.
Susan Evans:
[27:29] I think when we've run into that, it has been because people, Well, it's really interesting. It happens when leadership, and again, not all the time. I'm going to say all the time, just see how many people get upset, just for shits and giggles. When they, leadership doesn't know what's going to happen. So if I don't talk about it, I don't have to say, here's what's going to happen next. And the thing that's releasing for leaders is you don't know what's going to happen next. You have a plan, but people are going to inform your next steps. And it's okay that you don't know the actual every single effing step. Because in a year from now, this merger will be done or the acquisition's done or the riff is done. And it will sort itself out. And there'll be ups and downs and backs and forths. and you shouldn't have said that and blah, blah, blah. It's like, none of this is new. What's interesting is that companies pretend it's new to them for getting the human response to change. And I'm like, you're not the first company to do this, nor the first CEO, CHRO, CFO in charge of multi locations, in charge of multiple divisions, in charge of whatever. It's like, it's happened a hundred, it happens every effing day in some way, shape or form. And
Susan Evans:
[28:53] learn from before of the thing that drove people crazy wasn't this system merged with this system on the IT level, the people managing it. It was the people's response to that task that was the thing that was crazy. Then know what those could be and talk that through and prep for the response to the task or the thing that you're about to do, not the task itself. It's like we sent the email out, it should be done. It's like, what did the email say? How did you handle it? What is like all of this stuff of, and it is herding turtles and it is crazy because everyone's going to have their, they're bringing their own history to this change, but it doesn't mean you have to ignore how it's been done in the past or ignore what we know about humans, which is they don't like change. So why not embrace that and throw it into the recipe of your acquisition? It's always baffled me, absolutely effing baffled me. Like, well, we didn't see that coming. I'm like, I can name a hundred other companies who said the same thing, and yet none of you learned.
Jenny Evans:
[30:01] Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[30:03] It sounds like they're trying to avoid triggering trauma. And saying words that could people react to. And it's like, well, you have to desensitize at a certain point. And you have to bring up the thing that is causing this fear. Otherwise, as you mentioned earlier, Susan, there's a vacuum. And in the vacuum, people make shit up.
Susan Evans:
[30:30] Voldemort, again, I'm going to say it.
Paul Konrardy:
[30:33] Yeah, all the time. And then they make up worse things than are actually going to happen. Because they're fanciful and they are your midnight worst fears as you're staring at the ceiling so um it it seems to me that there's a trauma response to this that almost needs to be people need to be aware of because i i think as a society we are going through a lot of trauma and that makes change hard because everybody's got a heightened i shouldn't say this there's some people that don't, but the vast majority, are on this heightened awareness of societally losing something. I mean, we are a very divided society right now. And every headline that we have is about something that's divisive or harmful or scary or, you The current thing with Canada trade policy and
Paul Konrardy:
[31:33] Everyone's fearing for what's going to become of that and we're going to have a recession and everybody's going to lose their jobs and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm not saying that it's not a legitimate concern because obviously it is. But you can't turn around without having something that could potentially traumatize a person. So when I hear these companies trying to control it by not saying a set of words... It almost makes me feel like, okay, what are you hiding? Are those things actually in your plan? Because if they are, and you just don't want to announce it yet, that's a different thing. But to have an embargo list, sometimes to me is like hmmmm.
Jenny Evans:
[32:17] Well, I mean, that's in countries where they shut down communication. Like, well, do you think that breeds more trust or less trust? I mean, come on.
Susan Evans:
[32:29] You know what, though? I would also say one of the elements in that, because I've been in boardrooms and with CEOs and done riffs and all this stuff. It isn't that I don't want you to say it. I don't want you to say it because I don't know how to handle it. There are some folks who are like, I don't want them to say that because I don't want them to know what's about to happen. And there are ways to handle that, that they don't know out and there's an education to it. And that's usually what we do. But I think there's a, at the level of corporate change, we forget that those leadership also have a fear of change. They're doing this because they have to, to keep the company alive, to do this, to do that, to grow, to do this. The, the, the funny thing I found over the years is that most of these men and women running these companies
Susan Evans:
[33:27] Don't necessarily know exactly what they're doing they're just doing the best they can not unlike parents where you're just like what the fuck did i just do to my kid you know it's like but there's that same concept that
Susan Evans:
[33:39] Change doesn't happen you know at SVP down that fear goes straight up to the top too and i think that that is one of the things that because i would have to draft a bunch of memos this that the other and say here's why we're doing it and like we don't want to say that. And I'm like, why? Because we don't know what's going to happen. I'm like, no one knows what's going to happen. This could be perfect. But because we go to the worst place first, everyone assumes it's going to be the worst M&A, the worst merger possible. A CEO is like, it's not going to work. We can't really say it. And it's like, it will. It doesn't. You don't know that. But you are. And so we'd have to walk people through. It's like, you're smart enough to handle this. Don't worry. You got a brilliant board here. If something happens, the solution will come through. Don't be so scared. And it is a fear-based. I think most leaders operate out of fear of doing something wrong. There are very few that I met that were like, we're going to do it. I feel good about it. And it's like, I've met a few of those and I love them because they're confident and they know who they are, what they're going to do and how to handle it. A lot of them don't, or the people they're delegating to are terrified of making it wrong and then getting in trouble themselves. And so there's a fear of change. I think there may be a fear of implementing the change that people go through that probably is a trickle down.
Paul Konrardy:
[35:02] Is there also a role of people not being able to say, I don't know?
Susan Evans:
[35:06] I think people are terrified. That's one of my favorite words to say. What the hell are you talking about?
Paul Konrardy:
[35:10] I think they're scared. Well, if you're in a leadership position, it's hard to say, I don't know.
Susan Evans:
[35:16] Yeah, good leaders say it. Well, I shouldn't say that. Actually, I should. I think leaders who are very confident will say, I don't know what's going on. And I learned that lesson from a CEO in my first job. She walked in and said to everybody presenting, I don't know what the hell is going on here. And I was like, wow, she doesn't know this whole thing is screwed, which it was. But that was a lucky lesson for me to see a woman CEO walk in and say, I have no idea what you people are talking about. And the presentation is tomorrow. But she was very confident.
Paul Konrardy:
[35:54] Yeah, there's a difference between somebody saying, I don't know, from a place of I'm truly bewildered by this.
Susan Evans:
[36:01] And I need to know so I know.
Paul Konrardy:
[36:03] Exactly. To the other I don't know of like, I am absolutely devastated. I have no clue what. Even my name is right now. There's a difference.
Susan Evans:
[36:15] Yeah, and there's a fear of being wrong or not looking as smart as you want to be in front of others.
Paul Konrardy:
[36:20] Yeah, that's, well.
Jenny Evans:
[36:22] I think it's important
Jenny Evans:
[36:24] To admit of like, you know, that hasn't been figured out yet or that hasn't been communicated to me yet. But here's what I do know. and thank you as soon as i know, yeah i am going to let you know and susan to your point of like having that cadence of regular communication so that people again aren't just starting to imagine, what's what could possibly happen.
Paul Konrardy:
[36:52] That's a trust thing and trust takes repetition and it takes frequent continuing to
Paul Konrardy:
[36:59] do what you're saying you're going to do.
Susan Evans:
[37:02] And that progress piece it's kind of like When Eric and I were in Napa a hundred years ago, we would say, we'll find a place to stay when we land in the city, in those little towns. And we'd get there. We were so hungry. Never try and find a place when you're hangry in a new marriage.
Susan Evans:
[37:31] It was very interesting.
Jenny Evans:
[37:32] Amateur move.
Susan Evans:
[37:34] Yeah, it really was an amateur move. And both of us were, none of it was good. But we realized that when it comes to change, we had to be prepared with food and then make a decision. And then by the time we hit the third city, we're like, okay, here's where we started. We started here. Here's where we are. And here's where we're going to go. And we got much better at, you know what, we solved this and we're here now, we know what the plan has to be to make the next decision. And that kind of thing really helps in companies of, here's where we were, you guys are great, we figured this stuff out, and we're going to be here. And every single meeting is, here's where we started for the new people, or those who don't remember, those who weren't paying attention last time, you know, God love you, who is all the time. Here's where we started, here's where we are, and here's what's next. And that's the easiest way to keep people with you on that cadence, I've found, especially when you're very hungry in Napa.
Paul Konrardy:
[38:37] It just sounds to me like you should always put a fruit basket or something in front of everybody before you make a major announcement.
Susan Evans:
[38:43] That is not wrong.
Jenny Evans:
[38:46] I mean, Susan, you're bringing up a good biological point, though, of... People's physiology does determine how they're going to receive these messages and these information. And the fact that most people right now are overwhelmed, overloaded, overstressed.
Susan Evans:
[39:10] Financially strapped. I mean, that's why I'm going to lose my job. I can't afford to lose my job. I'm going to have to put up with this shit. And now I'm really double down in Sneaky Pete. i mean really it's like it's like Sneaky Pete has cloned himself and there are two of them with me now
Jenny Evans:
[39:30] Minimum i'm like there's more like 200 of him.
Susan Evans:
[39:33] Yeah thank you
Jenny Evans:
[39:33] There's a stadium
Susan Evans:
[39:34] Literally heard myself saying two and thought i think there's more.
Paul Konrardy:
[39:37] Shut the front door on Sneaky Pete.
Jenny Evans:
[39:38] Yeah i mean the other thing
Jenny Evans:
[39:41] I think leaders need to consider is, you know when you're at the top you have learned like this merger, this acquisition, this rollout, you've been having conversations about this for months before any employee hears anything about it. And so as a leader, you've also had time to take this in and to adapt. And you've been involved in a lot of these backdoor conversations. And that by the time you're rolling this out, you're more comfortable with this change, and then, you know, you're like, come on, everybody, just get on board of like, man, they are way back at the beginning of this change process. They're going to need time. They're going to need care in how you're communicating and what you're doing.
Susan Evans:
[40:35] Yeah. And I think that is something that is hard for leadership to remember because they have worked very hard for the betterment of the company for months before they can say anything. So by the time they announce it, they are halfway to three quarters of the way through that marathon in their mind when everybody else is just starting. And that is a hard switch to flip. For some people to say you're gonna start from the beginning and you're gonna have to tamp down your enthusiasm or how far you want to how far and how hard you want to push people and it's it's really interesting that some leadership is like oh i've been so excited to say this for so long and everyone's like what the hell are you talking about and that it it does take a
Susan Evans:
[41:31] Thoughtful approach to not freak people out no matter how big or small it is because i think paul you make a really good point there's so much stuff coming at everybody right now and it's becoming more hand-to-mouth with paychecks well it's always been hand-to-mouth with i don't know what i'm talking about but it's it's it feels like it's getting harder it's like i'm not going to drive because i need to eat i'm going to carpool here i'm going to it's like we're kind of creating this Jenga financial situation and emotional situation. And if one thing pulls that out, it's like, good Lord, how am I supposed to keep this together? And so I think it's, I think it's really important for anybody going forward in a leadership position to go, what is going on outside of my office, my building, my division, whatever it is, that will also play a part of the announcement I'm about to make. Because otherwise your blinders just looking straight ahead, which aren't going to help your people really. And why would you want to create resistance and anxiety if you can avoid it? I mean, that's not your goal and change. Let's freak them out and hope they quit. You know, it's like, no, that's not what you want to do. But why would you go into it then when that's a more probable outcome?
Jenny Evans:
[42:54] Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[42:55] It's funny you should put it that way, Susan, because I've been through probably one of the worst mergers in aviation history. Yes. And this just kind of shows how old I was. I was frontline at Republic when Northwest Airlines bought Republic Airlines. And so I went through that merge. Which was, at one time, used as a worst-case scenario in Harvard Business School. I don't know if it still is, but at one time, it was viewed as almost, you know, it was hard not to see decisions as they were announced to be by people who really didn't care, Susan, or who were trying to maximize the most harm to everyone. It wasn't just employees. It was to customers. It was to the airports. It was to almost anyone who had anything to do with that because it was multilayered. Now, clearly I'm bitter, but the point that I tried to make with this is that you, you bring up the point where it's hard not to, when you're in the midst of it, not think what is behind every one of these decisions, because you
Paul Konrardy:
[44:10] You really couldn't tell if it was animus or was it truly trying to make the most money out of the, out of every situation. It was every transaction. It was hard to know. It was really hard to know. I think a lot of that boils down to corporate culture. If a business has a culture that isn't open and is, is very authoritarian, I think you're going to run into that, not giving a benefit of the doubt. You're, you're going to have a bunch of people that just know, or they feel like they know you don't care about me so why should i care about the enterprise so those are those are the takeaways from a really poorly executed merge that's to me the ultimate change because they announced it was happening my very first day of trading and when it actually happened i didn't know if i was gonna have a job at the time so you know It's from day one, from my experience. But I'm not alone in that. Almost anybody who was involved with that did not know if they were going to have a job. So, yeah, it's real, man. It is real. And when that rock goes starting down the hill, it is almost impossible to stop.
Susan Evans:
[45:30] And I think, yeah, there's one thing with that, and you bring up a really good point. That that, the hangover from a poorly done merger, one, can be brought up in educational situations, but two, It can take, you can see intellectual capital walk out that door immediately up to two years plus, because it's like, you know what, I don't like it here. I'll give it some time. I still don't like it here. And that kind of thing, that slow fail is, people don't see it coming if you're not in touch with what is going on during and after the merger. That a slow fail is really painful. And if you're a publicly traded company, it's just like, what the hell? And it's like, but you can watch it. I mean, you can watch it impact all sorts of areas of business.
Paul Konrardy:
[46:29] Well, it certainly left a lot of money on the table, I think. I think the customer goodwill wasn't rebuilt until years, maybe a decade, maybe two after.
Susan Evans:
[46:41] Well, and I'm sure they didn't go into it going, let's see if we can destroy a company. I mean, maybe they did. Who knows what's going on, really? Hard to know. There's a conspiracy theory in there somewhere. But I mean, there is that. I don't think leadership goes in and say, let's destroy a company, get rid of the workforce, make sure we have no brand left after this. Our customer service is shit. It's like no one goes in and does that. So why does it happen? And that's the kind of semi-hubris. I know what I'm doing. It's like in an M&A or anything, any change in any company, we're moving buildings. It's like, okay, dear God, where's my office going to be? It's like, you have to really think this stuff through. I mean, I know people who change floors and it freaked them out to know. I mean, it's like, how much money do you want to lose? It should be a legitimate question if you're going to change anything in a company. It's like, how much are you willing to lose? And we just, you know, just throw a number out. It's like, not that much. It's just like, okay, let's start mitigating to make this the best thing possible instead of the worst thing possible.
Paul Konrardy:
[47:42] Right.
Jenny Evans:
[47:45] Yeah, this is stressing me out even just talking about it. I mean, it's making me think of a merger that I was a part of that, you know, I as somebody who studies this, you know, like stress and how does the brain respond to change? You know, my very first reaction was, oh, I don't like this. This is not going to be good. And then just being like, Jenny, that's how your brain is designed. so just sit tight, be patient, just wait and see. And I did wait for, I don't know, like a year and a half. But again, it was one change after another, after another, where I was like, this... For me, it was like... This new corporate culture does not share my values and beliefs, which was very much what the previous corporate culture was. And I was like, this is just headed in the opposite direction. And I got to go. I mean, so to your point, Susan, yeah, there's the people that are going to, leave immediately because they're freaked out and they're not going to stick around to see what's going to happen. But there's a very big part of the population that's still physically there. But psychologically emotionally they're halfway out the door their resume is updated and then you know they're finally going to hit their breaking point and just they're out yep if you don't do it right.
Paul Konrardy:
[49:14] That kind of goes back to your original question though is like the change it it feels harder but the changes that feel the hardest are the ones that you aren't choosing whereas you are changing if you're going to change jobs you're going to experience a lot of change but you're choosing to do it versus the changes that are happening around you you have no control over yeah neither one do you have a lot of control in reality but your brain is more attuned to the changes you choose versus those that you know
Jenny Evans:
[49:45] Yeah
Susan Evans:
[49:46] And there's there's a if i'm going to change jobs or do something different or go find a new client an old client or or move houses or go to a different vacation or whatever, there's a little bit of hope attached to that.
Paul Konrardy:
[49:59] Oh, yeah.
Susan Evans:
[50:00] Whereas depending on the leadership or your partner or the most recent experience at a Marriott, it's like will be where do I want to go based on what I know about myself, about the situation, hear my expectations. You know, it's like you have, I think the piece in there is I'm going to control my outcome a little more.
Paul Konrardy:
[50:24] You may not, but it seems like you are.
Susan Evans:
[50:26] But yeah, there's hope attached.
Paul Konrardy:
[50:27] Yeah, your hope springs eternal.
Susan Evans:
[50:30] Exactly.
Jenny Evans:
[50:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[50:33] I don't know. So, I mean, this is an interesting conversation. I feel like, man, we could go off in so many different directions.
Paul Konrardy:
[50:40] No, it is getting harder, though. I'm going to just affirm your initial question. I think it is.
Susan Evans:
[50:45] Well, I think, too. No, go ahead.
Jenny Evans:
[50:47] Oh, I was just going to say, like, just sort of like in summary, just the way I see things is one of the problems is it's just because there's so many that are now staffed on top of each other. It's outstripped people's biological capacity to deal with it and organizations, are just assuming that people are just not getting on board and they're just being resistant because, you know whether they don't have the emotional capacity to do it but like that is a normal brains normal response to change and when you understand that, and learn that there's there's ways to kind of mitigate that so that people's front door stays open more often and for longer periods of time so that they can effectively process the change.
Susan Evans:
[51:43] Yep i think that's the other and and i think You said this at the very beginning, there's so much going on. And I think with everything that's hitting people, it is now, even with AI, I should be able to do this better, stronger, faster, which isn't true. Because we're not as fast. We can't operate at the level we think we should. It is very difficult. And I think it feels like when there's change, it's like your phone, you have to get rid of some photos because it can't handle anymore. It's like when change comes, it's like, you know what, I literally cannot handle anything else. The job may be lovely, but the outside influences are to a point where if something happens in my job, I'm going to overflow. It's too much coffee in the cup. Yeah, I can't do it. Yeah. That's actually not true with coffee. I can always drink more coffee. So that was a bad example.
Paul Konrardy:
[52:50] Well, I think the biggest takeaway for me was that I just have to make sure I don't say shut the front door when change comes my way. So I can just stay open. That's right. Instead of immediately having fear.
Jenny Evans:
[53:07] Yeah.
Susan Evans:
[53:07] Please use that next week.
Jenny Evans:
[53:10] Oh, I'm going to. I got it. I wrote it down. It's brilliant. Thank you, Paul.
Susan Evans:
[53:15] Shut the front door. It is brilliant. Something different is happening.
Paul Konrardy:
[53:22] Yeah, I have to give a shout out to my friend, Jeanette. God, what's wrong with me? I'm losing my mind. Anyway, Castle is her last name. She's amazing. She's the one who taught me that because she'd always say it. Always. She was always shut the front door.
Susan Evans:
[53:40] Yeah, that's good.
Jenny Evans:
[53:42] That's good.
Susan Evans:
[53:42] And look up as many synonyms as possible for the words you can't say. I mean, that's just really interesting.
Paul Konrardy:
[53:48] Right there.
Susan Evans:
[53:49] I should.
Paul Konrardy:
[53:51] First names aren't graspable right now for me.
Jenny Evans:
[53:54] Or if I say them like in a really heavy accent, how like in the States we say aluminum, but like in Europe a lot of times it's aluminum. Aluminium, yeah, whatever.
Susan Evans:
[54:04] Aluminium.
Jenny Evans:
[54:05] I like that. I didn't say the word.
Susan Evans:
[54:08] I did not say the word.
Paul Konrardy:
[54:09] Why does everybody say potash the same way then?
Susan Evans:
[54:15] There you go Very true.
Jenny Evans:
[54:18] All right. I'll let you know how it goes next week.
Susan Evans:
[54:20] Oh, do. Yes. Yeah. So exciting.
Jenny Evans:
[54:24] Yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[54:25] All right. This was good.
Paul Konrardy:
[54:28] Bye.
Jenny Evans:
[54:28] See you next week. Hopefully nothing, not a lot changes between now and then.
[54:34] Before you go, a friendly reminder that the people on this podcast are curious,
[54:38] Not certified.
[54:40] Nothing you just heard is professional legal, financial, or business advice. It was a conversation. A good one, but still just a conversation. And if something they said makes you want to rethink your entire business model, maybe you should sleep on it first and then call someone with a license. The hosts bring the ideas and you bring the judgment. And if it all works out, they'd love to hear about it. If it doesn't, well, then they've never met you. All content is copyright monsters of curiosity and may not be reproduced or distributed without permission.
