Susan Evans:
[0:17] Woohoo! Welcome back to Monsters of Curiosity. I almost didn't say that right.
Susan Evans:
[0:22] It's that kind of day sometimes. Welcome back. I am here with two of my very favorite people, Paul Konrardy and Jenny Evans. Paul, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Paul Konrardy:
[0:38] Well, let's see.
Susan Evans:
[0:39] Thank you Paul.
Paul Konrardy:
[0:41] In the topic of today's conversation, I don't think I'm a hedonist, but perhaps we all have hedonistic tendencies, and I'm adapting to it.
Susan Evans:
[0:53] That's well done, Paul.
Paul Konrardy:
[0:54] There's your foreshadowing, and we can segue right into it, right?
Susan Evans:
[1:00] Hello, Jenny.
Jenny Evans:
[1:02] Hi, everyone. I'm a hedonist. I'm happy to be here.
Susan Evans:
[1:10] Oh, my God. So if you couldn't tell, it's kind of a small, we're going to readapt hedonist into something else.
Susan Evans:
[1:21] But the topic came from, I was listening to a, the topic is hedonic adaption. And it's the psychological process where people read something happens, good or bad, and that good or bad then becomes the baseline of your life, happy or sad, after a major event. So it's like you get a raise and then you think that was great. And in six months, it's like, that wasn't great. You can, you're used to that amount of money or something bad happens and you stay, um, I maybe, uh, broke up with somebody and I feel bad and I've stayed feeling bad because you know, whatever it is. So there's this adaption to what we all usually call the new normal. And I was hearing about this, um, when I was listening to Trevor Noah, he was on his podcast And I honestly don't know when it was from, but they were talking about how people are adapting to things. And he was saying that, I think it was Sam Walton. Am I right or am I wrong? I don't know. Someone who's done very, very well for themselves. Oh, yeah. The Oklahoma Oracle. Am I right? I don't know if I'm right. Someone in the comments.
Paul Konrardy:
[2:35] Sam Walton started Walmart.
Susan Evans:
[2:38] Someone is going to correct me, and thank you in advance for confirming or correcting what I'm saying. But it was someone who had done very well for themselves, who lived in the same house, drove the same station wagon, etc., etc. But the one thing they couldn't give up was the private jet. Take everything else but the private jet.
Paul Konrardy:
[2:58] Was that the Warren Buffetts of the world?
Susan Evans:
[3:00] That would be Warren Buffett. Thank you. Thank you.
Paul Konrardy:
[3:03] That's funny because he had a huge portion of money in U.S. Airways back in the day.
Paul Konrardy:
[3:09] So he had a private jet? And he owned alot of U.S. Airways.
Susan Evans:
[3:12] Yeah, they said that's the one thing he couldn't give up because the more you gain or achieve, your expectations rise. So you're never celebrating what you have really worked so hard for for so long. You get there and six months later, you're like, well, this is normal. I need more now, or I want more now. And I thought it's a kind of interesting treadmill that I thought, and we've kind of touched on it before, but I thought, well, it'd be interesting to be like, what's the one thing we couldn't give up? I'd love to know what that is when you say, I could not give this up out of all the things, but everything else could slide away. And then talk about psychologically and in life and job and all that. And what is this? Because we spend so much time going after things we believe that will make us happier. And then they become normal. And now I got to go get something else again. It's like, so what is that sneaky Pete thing that comes in where you're like, you know what? I strove for this and now I am blissfully unhappy. Or it's like, so what does that look like? So that's what I wanted to talk about and get your guys' thoughts on today.
Jenny Evans:
[4:28] I, this whole idea of always wanting more, seeking more, being curious about more, sort of like a double-edged sword. Because when I was looking into this, I was thinking about, you know, from an evolutionary perspective, it's really expensive to always be striving for more. Like, wouldn't contentment be a better option from an energy perspective of, you're not just like always spending energy more, more, more, more, but... It really comes down to our survival of to keep us seeking better shelter, better food. Is there a better environment that we could be in? Like this idea of striving on one hand is really fucking expensive, but striving. Oh, Tiffany just did a swear tally. She keeps a swear tally over here to know if we need to label the podcast as explicit or not. What was I saying?
Susan Evans:
[5:42] I think we should have levels of explicit.
Paul Konrardy:
[5:45] I think my horns are coming up.
Susan Evans:
[5:47] This is five-star explicit.
Jenny Evans:
[5:48] Totally. But just the predict—like, when life becomes too predictable, we're hardwired to be curious, to want to know what else is there. Could it be better? And then the more we're exposed to these things that, well, it's not always better for us now in today's modern lifestyle, like you can have as much as you want of just about anything. So, I don't know. I find it really fascinating.
Susan Evans:
[6:15] Thank you CostCo.
Jenny Evans:
[6:16] Yeah. And social media and, and, and. It's so fascinating to me.
Paul Konrardy:
[6:24] It sounds evolutionary to me in some ways the way what you just described is that that changing in ways and if you don't you stagnate and then you end up becoming extinct if you don't adapt that might be a different mechanism than i gotta say it right hedonic adaption um mm-hmm Which reminds me of a song, Hedonic Adaption. Hedonic Adaption. No, sorry. I'm in the mood today, clearly. But it's kind of, I've also, when I was doing my reading up on this, was there's also the hedonic treadmill, which I think is an interesting visual. It's almost like you get to a point, a new level, like when you're working on a treadmill and you get to a new level, and then suddenly it's no longer any different. It's not difficult anymore. So you look for a different way to increase something, whether that's, you know, your degree or, you know, difficulty or whatever.
Susan Evans:
[7:26] Yeah, because I think it's interesting is that those goalposts always move. And there's a great scene in broadcast news at the very end where they say.
Susan Evans:
[7:41] You know, how did this newscast come together? And there was some ethical issues involved. And the guy says, well, they just keep moving that ethical line, don't they? Line keeps moving and i thought that's really interesting because that's kind of that that's an adaption to the bad because he was not doing it well and it was like whoa we're going south here, and it's foreshadowing to where we are today um but it's that goal post that can move, like you said paul now that i'm used to this treadmill pace at you know, whatever it is you know five miles a minute kind of thing i need to go seven and it's like well you started out hoping to go 10, you know whatever it is you know it's like you wanted to have this you achieve it and then you keep going I mean it's weight training it's running it's jobs I you know I, want a house I got a house I got to change the house now where's that interior designer you know it's like what the hell and it's like is it because we're never happy never satisfied or I just thought my favorite thing was I can't give up the jet and I'm like well and who would I mean, frankly, if that were an option, no one would give that up. But so good for you to recognize it. But that adaption, is it a survival mechanism?
Paul Konrardy:
[9:06] Well, another thing I brought up when we were having the initial discussion about this topic is how its habituation seems like it's connected. And I think that's actually the mechanism by which the adaption happens, is because you lose the novelty of it. You lose, in some ways, you're not reacting the way you used to react. Whereas, you know, like in habituation, whether it's a smell or a taste or whatever, you develop a different response to it once you have that stimulus repeated to you. I'm wondering if it's, I mean, that's the mechanism by which this adaption happens, because then suddenly that raise or that new car smell or whatever just doesn't do it for you anymore because you've gotten used to it. And that craving for novelty, I think, is a huge component in what propels us. And so that propulsion is part of that. Cycle of adaption and then finding something new and novel and then adapting to it again. It's a weird circle.
Jenny Evans:
[10:19] Well, it is actually...Sorry.
Paul Konrardy:
[10:21] No, finish.
Jenny Evans:
[10:21] It is actually a craving because we got dopamine involved, which is really that reward molecule that rewards us for being curious, for seeking, for doing something that takes effort. That makes us feel really good, but it's not long-lasting. And we just sort of crave that. It's sometimes also called the pleasure molecule. I mean, it's like it's that rat hitting the lever for more and more heroin, dopamine, you know, whatever, how that just lights up certain... parts of your brain. And when something becomes really predictable, our brain just produces less dopamine. It's the novelty, the unexpectedness that produces the most amount of dopamine. You can still get dopamine from things you enjoy, but if it's something new and novel, that dopamine hit is so much bigger.
Paul Konrardy:
[11:26] Well, that's game theory. I mean, that's why it works. Why people continue to play games and get to levels beyond what they really should spend time on. But it gives them that squirt of happy juice. So away we go.
Susan Evans:
[11:40] That's why Meta got sued.
Jenny Evans:
[11:41] I mean, if you're in marketing.
Jenny Evans:
[11:45] This is all everything. I'm curious to know, how do you guys feel about, like, how quickly do you think you adapt hedonically? Because I'm thinking there are parts of me where I am known for, I call it, er, of like, oh, you know what would make this better? Er, stronger, faster. Um, Susan, when we were staying at your house, like we'd be out in the hot tub and I would just be like, oh my God, this is so nice. Literally about a minute and a half later, I'd be like, you know what would make this better? Champagne. I'd jump out, go get some champagne, come back in. And then I'd just be like, oh my God, now this. And then within a couple of minutes, I'm like, you know what would make this better? Music. I'll go get a speaker of like, I can think of instances. In my life where that hedonic adaptation happens so quickly in other areas where it takes a lot longer. Because I was thinking about when we first moved to San Diego, I remember thinking to myself, and knowing this is not true, but it really felt true at the time, I was like,
Jenny Evans:
[13:02] How could anybody ever be sad or unhappy here? But I'm like, it's just going to be a matter of time before like life follows you wherever you go but i will say i am happier here
Jenny Evans:
[13:19] It is true.
Paul Konrardy:
[13:20] So you haven't adapted completely.
Susan Evans:
[13:21] Yes, you are. Yes.
Jenny Evans:
[13:22] Yeah, I have not adapted completely. I'm like, thank God. And it's been seven years?
Susan Evans:
[13:29] Yep. Yeah, I know. And I was going to say, it's easier to adapt and be happier, I believe, in warmer climates. I was just at a meeting where we were talking about veterinarians, and there's a vet shortage in the industry completely. And one of the really good schools is the university of minnesota here and he said even if the kids are from here and graduate from here they leave because the climate is not fabulous, and so i was like yes i can see why san diego yes you have one life yes but i think what you said something that was really interesting is that the things, it will satisfy one part but the other pieces of it geography you you can't hide problems with geography, it's which i think is really fascinating um that it's i'm gonna move here and it'll all be better and it's like no not all happiness of being able to walk around without a parka will be year-round, but if that and if that was the one thing that didn't work for you then then you're okay but I've always found that geography, doesn't do a damn thing, maybe for about three or four months. But then it's like, God, bless America. It's back.
Jenny Evans:
[14:50] I'm still me...ugh.
Susan Evans:
[14:51] All those things I ran from.
Susan Evans:
[14:52] Yeah. I'm still me, but with a tan. Oh, my, God.
Jenny Evans:
[14:59] So, I mean, how do you guys feel about how quickly you adapt and when you want more?
Paul Konrardy:
[15:08] Wow, that really is so dependent on the circumstance. I mean, if you're looking at things like things, like an automobile, I think, you know, the novelty of an automobile kind of wears off in maybe a year, maybe six months, maybe less. Depends on who it is, if they're really into it. And it also depends on your interests. So there's that. I mean, be relocated to Denver three and some years ago, and it's still a delight. You know, there's still a little bit of a pinching every now and then when I see mountains and I'm like, oh my gosh, we actually live here. It's so weird.
Paul Konrardy:
[15:52] So I think a relocation is one of those things that has different levels of adoption. Um but i'm wandering in relationships i think that that's another one of them that's like uh you can adapt to a love relationship over time but the longevity there is because you're constantly either learning new things about this person that is like it brings you closer or you are growing together at a similar pace towards something else you're always adapting yep so it you know that's kind of the longevity question that falls into it. But I think it falls into that. Um, I don't want to be speaking of hedonic as solely as a pleasure thing, but it is part of it. And, you know, there has to be something positive to it. So from a timeline perspective as to when is the adaption going to happen? I think it really depends on the topic or the situation or the stimulus.
Paul Konrardy:
[16:55] For me.
Paul Konrardy:
[16:56] That's my answer...
Susan Evans:
[16:59] And I think, too, it's like, huh. If it's a bad thing that happens to you and you think you're never going to, get out of that box, you do get out of that box. And so it may be like a survival piece where, if something bad happens, and I've been so following what happened in Nepal and Tibet, I don't know how anybody comes back from that. But they did in 2015 when they had an earthquake people rebuilt and they found this you know quote-unquote new way of living new normal whatever it is I don't know how people come back from this I really don't it's so horrific but it's like there are survival mechanisms to, I will find a way to live breath by breath step by step and so I think in that sense too It doesn't have to be how did you adapt to, all these lovely things, but how did this cycle pull you out of something really bad? Because it's interesting, I think, how that is like a survival mechanism in your head that you think, I can't do it, but then somehow you do.
Paul Konrardy:
[18:18] You think some of that's habituation? I don't know. I mean, they go hand in hand. Yeah. If one day you have electricity and running water and all that kind of thing, and the next day some horrible thing happens, and you don't have those, and you're still surviving, you kind of habituate to what you have and don't have.
Susan Evans:
[18:37] Yeah. And you recover from that. Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[18:40] I mean, thinking of that example of an earthquake, wiping them out. Then you go, here comes a flood,
Paul Konrardy:
[18:48] Wiping them out.
Paul Konrardy:
[18:49] You know there's there's certain things that are human evolution that allows us to manage and survive yeah and even some situations thrive
Susan Evans:
[19:02] And i think and i think too it's like the, back to your question jen about, you know how fast you go through these things and it's like things aren't the cycle for me is constantly being challenged mentally all the things, there's things I'm sentimental about because they came from family members the rest of it it's like that's fine I don't care that art I'm sentimental about my art um not my art it's others art, certainly not mine but it's like those things I like to keep but other than that it's like, it's just stuff and it doesn't I would miss it. Would I? Yeah, I would. I would miss conveniences. I don't know if I would miss the thing, quite frankly. But if I couldn't talk with you guys, have these questions, do all this, this for me every week is like a cycle of, okay, this is interesting. So it's like that constant mental challenge for me. If I don't have that, it is, as a dear friend of mine said, when I kind of semi-retired, she's like, if you don't have something to do, you are not a good person to be around and she is correct.
Paul Konrardy:
[20:24] I don't know if that's a true friend or just somebody who has no boundaries and filters.
Susan Evans:
[20:29] Yeah no true friend true friend true honest friend she's like you have got to have something to do you have to because she knows it's like so i think that cycle for me is, something has to be going on to solve all time and then i'm just i'm just happier, um So for me, it's like a mental thing. I'm sure I would find out if everything left, just what those possessions would be.
Susan Evans:
[20:54] But at this point in this stage.
Paul Konrardy:
[20:57] I'm thinking of Jen's brain chemistry perspective. And I think of your problem solving as you get a reward when you solve a problem. So there's a little bit of addiction in there. That's why you're not happy, because you're not solving something. And so therefore you're not getting those squirts of dopamine or whatever solution. I think it's probably the same mechanism as a reward.
Susan Evans:
[21:23] As a drug? It was somebody
Paul Konrardy:
[21:26] okay Susany you're just a druggie.
Susan Evans:
[21:27] No, somebody said that I'm an adrenaline junkie, and I laughed, ha, ha, ha, and I thought, wow, that is dead on.
Paul Konrardy:
[21:34] I used to say that when I worked for you, not with you.
Susan Evans:
[21:38] You worked with me. We all worked together. Yeah. Um, no, but that's, no, but, and that's, and now I see that more than ever. And that's kind of what interested me in this topic. It's like, um, yeah. This hedonic adaptation is that when you said treadmill all i was like yes it was a treadmill that i was on, and i loved it it's like ah great it's like but then i was like why did i love it and it was that little shot of heroin every single time that was not heroin it was just life let me clarify that, but it was that constant dopamine drop of salt this did that seven of them today 10 of them tomorrow. It's like, yeah, and keep it all together. And I was like, great. That was easy and I loved it. And so I think it was that intellectual piece of, How do you survive when that's not there? And what's the new normal? And is that new normal above or below the baseline you had?
Susan Evans:
[22:43] Was that baseline even realistic? It's that kind of thing.
Susan Evans:
[22:51] And I think the same thing where some, not some, I will say for all, this does not come from a place of jealousy. It doesn't. All the billionaires out there, how much fucking do you really need? What is this i mean unless it's all caught up in companies and you actually have almost no cash on hand it's like but it's like at what point is that bar too high, you know and and that's kind of it's it's that was the other piece of this where it's like, seek adapt seek adapts and it just goes higher and higher and higher and why does it have to be so high i remember with the company everyone was like, well, you should grow this as much as you can. I thought that it's such a male make it big and large mentality. It's like, why can't you make it smart, quality, you know, solve it and just make it a certain size that works for whatever you want, you know, being the next biggest thing. I just thought, where the hell does that come from? And why is that the rule? And I was like, because of this adaptation of I got to get this, I got to get this, I got to get this, that treadmill that goes up.
Paul Konrardy:
[23:58] Well, it's a competitive Western value, which doesn't always work.
Jenny Evans:
[24:07] I mean, it's fascinating how, like, none of this happens in a vacuum that we were talking about. Like, you know, this is also habituation. And is it somebody who just really loves power or somebody who has a growth mindset of how much stimulus or adaptation do you need in order to get that dopamine hit? You know, yeah, you could either say like, well, I have a really low hedonic threshold or I'm just really a growth minded person who loves learning new things and adapting. Yeah, I mean, none of this stuff is just one element because then you've got all these other factors, all the other personality trait, the environment, which just makes the study of psychology so hard. Because you can't isolate any one thing it's it's you're all part of this bigger microcosm um but it is interesting of like as an animal which we are
Jenny Evans:
[25:24] The more adaptable an animal is the greater is its chance of survival. But as I'm, okay, I kind of have a little bit of a negative view of the future lately of like, it's not always great to be adapting to your circumstances because to your point where you're like, wow, the baseline is right down there in that gutter. And like, you know, the new normal of, yeah, I mean, there's always pros and cons to everything. Like, thank goodness we can adapt. But then there's times where you're like, us adapting to that and for that feeling like normal, it's not a good thing.
Paul Konrardy:
[26:06] Right, right.
Susan Evans:
[26:07] That's interesting that sometimes that you can't adapt to that, cycle down where you say, no, I'm stopping that. I'm going to go the other direction. That's interesting. So just because it happened and you have a familiarity with it doesn't mean it is your new normal. Because you can say, I'm going to switch direction on this. I'm going to say, nope, that's not what I'm familiar with it and I don't like it. So we are going to take a sharp hairpin left here.
Susan Evans:
[26:43] So that is really interesting.
Paul Konrardy:
[26:47] I like the idea of talking about baselines, though. That's kind of an interesting... Uh, that's an interesting part of this. So when you, and even that, like you were saying, Jenny, it's not in a vacuum. It's a, it's a baseline based on different sets of other things. Like your age baselines are different as you go through your life. You know your your body's capability baseline changes your even your maybe your brain's ability to think changes so there's that's kind of fascinating that we have a it's almost a three or four level game of chess going because we've got so many different dynamics to think through or we could think through or we just react to them and so what a baseline that when you had when you were in your 20s. I think of people like one of those weird things is hairstyles. I think it's so funny to me that somebody is in their 70s or 80s and they're still sporting the same haircut they had when they were like 20 or trying to put it that way. There's a baseline there that they haven't adapted to what they have, men in particular. They don't know that they necessarily have as much hair
Jenny Evans:
[28:03] Paul no, they found the haircut that suited them perfectly.
Susan Evans:
[28:07] Yes.
Paul Konrardy:
[28:07] And that never changes. It never changes. But I mean, that's a baseline for them. And so, you know, they go to the hairdresser and say, I want something totally different, but don't touch the length. I mean, what? It's like, okay, that makes absolutely no sense.
Susan Evans:
[28:22] Oh, yeah, that's great.
Paul Konrardy:
[28:23] You know what I'm saying? It's like this idealized, what you think is your baseline. Sometimes changes and then you've adapted somehow you adapt to what your self images or your belief is and that's you know those baselines i think also are you know think about i think about the the weirdness of oh this is pretty controversial but uh religions having these baselines that don't take any human experience into them. And so it's like, okay, human need, we're not going to meet that human need because we have this baseline that we can't cross. Sorry, but some people don't adapt to that as they have those experiences in life. And so therefore, they just kind of stay.
Susan Evans:
[29:18] Or they say, my belief system has changed for whatever reason, and I'm going to go find something else that I can latch on to.
Paul Konrardy:
[29:28] That's an adaption, yeah.
Susan Evans:
[29:29] That supports the negative or positive things in my life. Because to say that they just happened because of me, a lot of people can't own that. It's like, must be something else. Must be Buddha.
Paul Konrardy:
[29:44] Yes they can narcissistic as hell in other things.
Susan Evans:
[29:46] Yeah, exactly. It must be some religious thing or some something or a scientific coincidence or whatever. Because that where I ended up on my cycle of wanting more isn't right where I thought I would be. So now I'm down here. My baseline changed. Certainly can't be my fault. So whose isn't? Yeah, it's okay. I think people should have enough hubris to own their own shit. I'd appreciate that.
Paul Konrardy:
[30:19] You would think.
Susan Evans:
[30:20] Yeah. No, I thought this was really interesting. What's the one thing that you aspire to? You can leave the rest. But don't take this from me. Mine would be bananas and brown sugar, which if you haven't tried it, is a delight. Fucking delight.
Jenny Evans:
[30:42] Are you talking about you just dip a dip it in brown sugar?
Susan Evans:
[30:46] Slice up the banana and sprinkle a tablespoon of brown sugar, sometimes more depending on your mood, over the banana and mix it all up. It's really good.
Paul Konrardy:
[30:54] Isn't if you broil it or you use one of those torches on it, isn't that kind of like Bananas Foster?
Susan Evans:
[31:02] It's pretty close. This is like an embarrassingly lazy way to do a lot of things.
Paul Konrardy:
[31:07] Okay, so we're now into recipes. I like this. I like it i like it i don't know that i could say i think honestly coffee is one of those things that i just cannot give up just can't uh i've tried to decaffeinate and remove it why now i'm kind of in this half regular half decaf world of whatever but i think it's that's maybe it's the habit in the morning, first thing, have a cup of coffee.
Susan Evans:
[31:41] So that's interesting.
Paul Konrardy:
[31:42] Maybe it isn't. I don't know. I haven't adapted out of that since I've been an adult.
Susan Evans:
[31:47] Well, that would be a hedonic adaption. That's your stable baseline.
Paul Konrardy:
[31:53] Yeah, it's true. It's true.
Jenny Evans:
[31:56] Okay, I have a sort of a I'm like, is this a little bit embarrassing? I don't know. Nobody needs to stage an intervention. I don't think. But this is also what an alcoholic would say.
Susan Evans:
[32:08] I am going to use that for every single sentence I start for the rest of the day.
Jenny Evans:
[32:15] Okay something recently where i was like i am not giving that up is my rheumatologist um my i'm i take a rheumatology medication where you're not supposed to drink because this medication is kind of hard on your liver and then if you drink it makes it even harder on your liver and she's just been telling me like you should stop drinking you know and then i will cut back or I'll stop. And I'm like, I am just not as fun without like a G&T at the end of the day. And so finally I went into her office and I just said, I've thought about it and I'm not going to stop drinking. And she just, of course she went into like, but you really should and you should think about it. And I was like, ma'am, I've been thinking about it. I am not going to do it. And I was like, this is the first time I have ever like openly defied, especially a health care professional. Because I told her, I'm like, I exercise five days a week. I eat really healthy. I could just like, this is the one thing that gives me pleasure and I am not going to quit. So what other medication options do we have?
Susan Evans:
[33:30] Yeah, I think science and medicine and technology have come a long way.
Paul Konrardy:
[33:35] Did they find something?
Jenny Evans:
[33:36] The look that she gave me the look that she gave me was But I was like, OK, I'm not going to be like a patient and tell you I'm going to do it. And I'm lying to your face of like, I'm telling you straight up, not going to happen.
Susan Evans:
[33:51] Hey, straight up, their job often is to take, and I will say people like me and go, then your options are limited. It's like, as long as I know that. Yeah, good for you. I think, and this is me growing up in a household of doctors and health care professionals in hospital environments. We should challenge our doctors. I have done that and been so wrong. I mean, so wrong that I'm surprised I am still with some teams. What the hell? Gravity doesn't work like that.
Jenny Evans:
[34:29] Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[34:32] Well, you are a little interesting case, Susan. I will have to say that. What little I know. What are we all? I mean, I do think...
Susan Evans:
[34:40] We all have our own corners of the world.
Paul Konrardy:
[34:42] Yeah, exactly. I think that's an interesting baseline that you came to,
Paul Konrardy:
[34:50] and basically you're making it happen. So were they able to help you with something else that isn't as liver-threatening or liver-unfragically? I'm just curious if there are other options, then there's other trade-offs you have to make. It may not be as effective.
Jenny Evans:
[35:07] But I have not had my blood work tested since I've been on the new medication, so we shall see. That I'm just hoping for liver transplants in the future if I need one.
Paul Konrardy:
[35:20] Well, yeah.
Susan Evans:
[35:20] Yikes.
Paul Konrardy:
[35:21] You can get half of one, and it'll grow. Well, you know, they are coming up with that. That is they, meaning the elusive they. But that is something they're looking at. It's organ transplantation. Isn't that what Putin was whispering to the Chinese premier about how he's just going to replace all his organs? He's going to live forever because he's going to replace all his organs?
Jenny Evans:
[35:47] I need to get down in on that conversation, apparently.
Susan Evans:
[35:51] Chop, chop.
Paul Konrardy:
[35:52] If you are ever in that situation where you can have that, I don't think you'll ever speak to me again. You're way over there way over there
Susan Evans:
[36:03] I personally think we are on our third Putin, maybe our second Trump, I don't think these are the originals.
Paul Konrardy:
[36:11] Are they new or improved?
Susan Evans:
[36:13] I don't think they're.
Susan Evans:
[36:14] New or improved
Susan Evans:
[36:15] No, I think it's one of those it's the degradation of the coffee is what we're seeing.
Paul Konrardy:
[36:20] That's true.
Paul Konrardy:
[36:22] That's true generational loss.
Susan Evans:
[36:26] I think that's interesting the gin that it's like, like, nope, I'm not going to give this up this. Well, essentially your gin and tonic is Warren Buffett's private jet. You're like, you know what? Take the rest away. I will do whatever you want, but don't touch this.
Jenny Evans:
[36:43] A hundred percent.
Susan Evans:
[36:44] Yeah. No, that's it. And coffee. Yeah, absolutely.
Jenny Evans:
[36:51] Well, let me also say there have been periods of time where I don't drink and I also did not notice a difference. So if it was something where I was like, oh, my gosh, I know this is, you know, I can see that this is hurting me. That's a different story where i'm just like
Paul Konrardy:
[37:10] right
Jenny Evans:
[37:10] yeah
Paul Konrardy:
[37:11] Yeah well i think a lot of the guidance those baselines that have come up that they come up with as you need to live in this ideal doesn't fit everyone so i i think that's you're you're you're unusual in some ways and then you actually walk the walk when it comes to being active and healthy. Not a lot of people do that.
Susan Evans:
[37:37] Yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[37:38] That's not another idea of like baseline adaptation that I see quite a bit in when people talk to me about stress, like, of course, like you, you adapt to your levels of stress. I mean, to a degree, if it's very extreme, that's a different story. But how many people have told me, and it's all been women, interestingly, is that when they have periods in their life where they're not under as much stress they feel really weird it doesn't feel good where they're like i i'm i'm supposed to be doing something right now like you know when we talked about like is this adapting to good is this adapting to negative that it it is just fascinating to me like i said just how adaptable we are and that even when you've adapted in a really good way it's still not the baseline that you're used to
Susan Evans:
[38:44] right
Jenny Evans:
[38:44] so you're still going to be uncomfortable even though this is something that's positive
Susan Evans:
[38:50] It's something you work towards yeah that's i think that's the the reason why people who are retired are like my ba... i worked for this the baseline to get here was one structure, and or this could be for a new job this could be for any situation the baseline to get to the new job, to retirement, to buy the home, to do all of these things, was x which meant you were pushing pushing pushing pushing and then when you get there to that baseline, that familiarity you have that honeymoon period with it we're like this is the greatest job and i'm so glad i and then you're they're going what? you know, because you've adapted to this and now that structure that you're used to living your life by, boom, cycle up, cycle up, that kind of thing does start to come into play. And if you don't have any, and with retirement or a new job or a new house, those things that you used to use.
Susan Evans:
[39:53] When they're gone, you notice it. And it's like, I need to replace how I built stress, how I responded to A, B, or C. I need to replace that in this new baseline. And if I'm not finding it, now it's really weird. And it's hard. It's hard. That's why, and.
Susan Evans:
[40:10] I will never understand this because this never happened to me. But they said that kids who had success built their own success really young. When i was growing up it was usually rock stars where you have millions of dollars very young they completely fall apart because they have no mechanism or idea how to then, build that say here's how i will structure this because you spend your whole life struggling to get there but no one's telling you what to do after now that you spent you know 10 years to do this if you're too young and you get it it's really hard, from what i've read but it's also the same thing if you worked really hard for it, that baseline where you've had to adapt to something, is usually pretty large. And when you get there, it's very limited. It's a different set of baselines and a different set of rules. Once you get to that new house, I got it. It's great. It's there. And then it's like, you know, that driveway sucks. And it's like, are we bringing that? Does the driveway really suck? Or am I just doing that because I am so used to having something that has to be fixed that I was like, I'm just having 15 things buzzing around me. And now I only have two and it goes to your point Jenny these women are like, i'm used to having chaos and i loved it because i knew what to do with it it was the hell i knew but if i now have two things...
Paul Konrardy:
[41:36] yeah
Susan Evans:
[41:37] I don't know what to do with it because this is not anything i know how to handle.
Jenny Evans:
[41:44] That's so good the hell you know versus the the hell you don't know the bliss you don't know
Susan Evans:
[41:49] Yeah the heaven on the other side.
Paul Konrardy:
[41:53] Yeah that's it's kind of an inertial quality to it doesn't it's like you're you're you know and there there we go back into the change why does change seem so hard and why does it seem harder now i mean we just had a conversation about that but it's like the devil you know and the hell you know are things that you've adapted to i think that's kind of the lesson here and when you don't have those things that cause that hell suddenly you have to adapt again
Susan Evans:
[42:21] To things that may be better.
Paul Konrardy:
[42:23] And possibly very much better but
Susan Evans:
[42:26] But I have to learn how to deal with better
Paul Konrardy:
[42:27] But you still have to have this skill to adapt that um may not seem like you are doing hedonic adaption but you are because your circumstance has changed your circumstance has changed
Susan Evans:
[42:42] So if you're on this treadmill, what helps you step off in a healthy way?
Paul Konrardy:
[42:51] I think you drink a cup of coffee in the morning. You have bananas with brown sugar for lunch. And then you have a G&T at the end of the day.
Susan Evans:
[43:01] Well, and there we are.
Paul Konrardy:
[43:03] I think that's our recipe for a good life.
Susan Evans:
[43:06] That's a good day. I like that. I like that.
Paul Konrardy:
[43:10] I don't know, Susan.
Susan Evans:
[43:12] That would be choosing. That is good enough for me. Thank you very much.
Paul Konrardy:
[43:16] I mean, is it keeping an open mind to things or keeping an open mind? Uh being able to think instead of react you know is it is it taking time to really realize what it is living in the moment being mindful of where you are right now is that is that is that an adaptive technique
Jenny Evans:
[43:38] I mean there's a lot of different techniques that can help you know like just a gratitude practice being in the being in the present moment um i mean susan i think a really important one that you brought up when you know your business was successful and it was growing and people were like you should really blow it up and you're like why why would I want to do that because you were really clear on your values and your beliefs and purpose and what like what really made you happy was not a lot of what society tells us should make us happy because then it's so easy to be on that treadmill because it's not true happiness. It's the things that you've been told are supposed to make you happy versus doing the things that are more intrinsically driven that are aligned with, I guess, like more of your best self versus all these external trappings
Susan Evans:
[44:39] Do you think because i got stuck in this last week the last like 10 days um, watching everybody suffer over there in Tibet. This is not unusual where anybody who can't do a lot, you just start to swirl down into a pit of despair.
Susan Evans:
[45:06] And stepping off that treadmill, I had to like put my phone away and it comes back to when I picked it back up again, it was like, and there it was again. And social is so fast with those algorithms that there's this dopamine drop in social and in AI and all the stuff where I expect it to be really fast. I expect it so when something is difficult i need to sit down and you know smell the coffee the roses the gnt whatever it is that may take 15 to 20 seconds and apparently that is too long, and i was like does social flip this switch in us and ai were well we've all talked about this well you know i put together a 12-month marketing plan and it was brilliant and it took four minutes, you know and i realized you know and it's just like this thing where it's like i expect everything to happen so fast are we unfair to ourselves in our adaptations of things to expect our tiny little brains or, the small percentage is at 10 that we use.
Susan Evans:
[46:18] What is going on there because i picked it back up and i was like and i was like oh my god, this algorithm hit so fast so hard is which was more satisfying than not being on the phone because things were slower. I was like, and is that a problem now that things are so fast that we expect, ourselves and our brains and the adaptation we can actually do is probably much slower, I know it is, than Meta's algorithm or OpenAI's ability to dazzle me with marketing plans in four minutes.
Paul Konrardy:
[46:58] Well i think i think you've you've uh the modern world particularly american business world has a very very short half-life and when you are when you are even thinking about taking some other way of being like i remember working with european countries which are people in european countries which take you know the summer they take two three maybe sometimes four weeks off and so therefore it grinds everything you're doing in business to a halt what i think is fantastic about that is it gives them a chance to really reboot how their brains work it may seem like a short period of time but americans don't really do that if they take a week off it's amazing and they often sometimes dread it because they're like oh my god i don't know what i'm gonna do and then when you do take it it takes you about three days to get into it to slow things down so that you can experience the world in a different a different time frame so it's a
Paul Konrardy:
[48:06] I i think what you're what i'm hearing you talk about is something i'm very responsive to is like i it's hard to shut it off It's really hard to shut it off. And if you shut it off, you've got FOMO. But if you don't shut it off, you go crazy. So, you know, where is that? You've got to take some time. And I think that's our ability to adapt where we have to actually
Paul Konrardy:
[48:30] Physically talk to ourselves and say you know you gotta slow this down you gotta stop you gotta try to eliminate something from from your stimulus menu in order to you don't always have to have a screen on um you know that's and that's a that's an addictive quality that i think many of us struggle with i know i do um it's hard not to have something on but um when you do take the time to do that you give yourself permission to it's another thing um then you you do end up after a few days in a different place and your baseline changes so i think that adaptation is one of those baseline pieces i love i love that we're talking about it.
Susan Evans:
[49:12] Changing the baseline that is really that's a really good way to look at it and from a conversation we had a long time ago which i said to myself these last few days, you can change your own algorithm for God's sake. I mean, if there's one thing you can do, change your algorithm.
Jenny Evans:
[49:31] So I love this. When you think about how hard and long our ancestors had to work to get dopamine, it was like, to your point, Susan, like it was it was a longer payoff cycle, whereas now I can get a hit of dopamine just by flicking my finger.
Jenny Evans:
[49:55] You know, so, again, it's always just fascinating to me how, like, our biological hardwiring really has not changed in the last hundreds of thousands of years. But, man, the environments that we're living in now are so different than when our brains evolved. And, you know, just like the addictive quality of social media versus like, well, the addictive quality of plowing my field. Well, at least you got physical exercise and it was creating something that you needed in order to sustain yourself. And now we just like these get these little dopamine hits for for very little effort. And it's just it's a lot of times now it's all just based on novelty.
Susan Evans:
[50:44] Yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[50:46] Versus I worked really hard for this. I got this reward. It's now just like novelty, novelty, novelty, novelty without a lot of physical effort.
Susan Evans:
[50:56] Mm-mm. And why can't I have that novelty or do anything about that novelty? Because it's so far away or geographically, emotionally, financially. I mean, it's like in every far away you can think of, but when it's fed to you, it seems closer. And it's like, because I'm seeing it, can I do something with it? Whereas before all of this, seeing it was much harder and everything was slower, That's why I think it's like, I jokingly say now that the first Terminator is really a documentary. The machines are taking over. I'm like, it's not that fun anymore because now it's happening, you know? And so it's...
Paul Konrardy:
[51:46] Oh, there's a lot of cautionary tale movies out there.
Susan Evans:
[51:51] From the 80s.
Paul Konrardy:
[51:51] From many, many decade
Susan Evans:
[51:53] s ago. Yeah, no, it's like, dear God. But I think, yeah, you're right, Jen, because the plowing the field, everything was slower and in benefit
Jenny Evans:
[52:09] To survival.
Susan Evans:
[52:11] For survival, yeah. And the stuff that we're getting now isn't, necessarily, not for my survival, you know, humanity's survival, it is important. But, I mean, me day to day, it's, I am literally trying to cut down that dopamine, which is really hard. It's like, and then I'm like, be an adult and just do it for Christ's sake.
Susan Evans:
[52:34] Nothing is that difficult.
Paul Konrardy:
[52:35] Oh, I think you just need to go to Betty Ford for that. No, that's.
Jenny Evans:
[52:37] Well I know, but that is,
Jenny Evans:
[52:39] That's the addictive nature. Like if you're an addict, a lot of times, you know, this is not good. And I really wish I could stop. However, the chemistry of my brain and body now craves this, this loop. And it's, it's not, it's not easy to just be rational or be a mature adult about it, which is, I think it's like such a dangerous thing about things like dopamine. I mean, and when marketers understand this, when the social media companies understand this, I don't know if weaponizing it is too big of a word, but.
Susan Evans:
[53:19] No, I don't think it is.
Paul Konrardy:
[53:21] I don't think it is.
Susan Evans:
[53:22] No, I mean, Meta got sued in part because of that. I mean, not that they weaponized it. I don't mean that. Mark did not mean that.
Paul Konrardy:
[53:31] Well, they're kind of in a sense of, you know, they're filling their coffers at the expense of...
Susan Evans:
[53:38] At the expense of... Understanding how to leverage an algorithm. Yeah. And there's a line that was crossed.
Paul Konrardy:
[53:48] I think there's a generational thing here.
Paul Konrardy:
[53:50] Too, that way I think we need to make sure that we're acknowledging. Because I think we're seeing some of the trends of those who are younger, particularly digital natives, who clearly have been marketed to their entire life. They understand on a different level than those that weren't digital natives, the impact of it. And for the most part, if they're thinking people, they know what they need to do in order to have a very healthy bullshit filter. So I think there's one of those, that's something we, generationally, I think we're going to see some changes happen as a result. But, you know, that's my hope springs eternal because I think we evolve. I do think we evolve. And I'm hoping that the younger generations will be smarter at adapting to what's available to them than what many of us are.
Jenny Evans:
[54:46] Brain chemistry is still the same. Our brains are still wired, still the same. I hate to be the pessimist.
Paul Konrardy:
[54:51] But they also know, well, this is my fantasy, is that they know how to turn it off or they know how to use
Paul Konrardy:
[54:58] Their brain differently.
Jenny Evans:
[54:59] Of course there's a difference between knowing and doing, they know I should. There's so many things that we know we shouldn't be doing, but yet we can't. Just like that self-discipline and willpower is very, very difficult to override those chemical reward loops.
Paul Konrardy:
[55:18] Yes. Yes. Definitely. Like I said, I'm an optimist in that regard.
Susan Evans:
[55:26] I think you can be an optimist because the RAP did a study, and they're saying that Gen Z and Gen Alpha—.
Susan Evans:
[55:39] Um, are putting phones down because the new trend is to see your face. You have a conversation face to face, which is sort of vintage, if you will. But yeah, that's old school. Yeah. Um, but they're more interested in, I don't want my phone. I want to see my friend in person because they now understand is like, this isn't working. I'm seeing how it's wrecking things. And so it's wrecking people, places, things They're not putting them down to say I'm never going to touch this again But it's, let's find a better balance Of how we're doing this And they're the generation where it's just starting to take hold Where they're like, I don't think this is what I want to be doing Kind of the same way when there was, The financial crises and everybody lost their job in the 2000s and the kids grew up seeing their parents get fired from jobs that you retire from. And so they really lost a lot of faith in I'll be there forever. And then we have people who saved jobs two to four to five years. Jump, jump, jump. It's like, what happened to longevity? It's like, well, you crushed it. So I think today's quote unquote kids are like, I don't like that. I'm going to find a different balance. So I'm hoping the pendulum's going back, as we've dumped it all on them. Good luck with the pendulum. It's a pretty big kids.
Paul Konrardy:
[57:07] There's behaviors and then there's the physiology. And I think, Jen, you're mentioning that the brain chemistry hasn't really changed. It's kind of like how much you're using those dopamine generators and receptors. That probably is what I'm hoping they understand. But that might not be the overall outcome of this whole social experiment.
Susan Evans:
[57:29] And they might find dopamine in another way.
Paul Konrardy:
[57:30] Yeah.
Jenny Evans:
[57:33] Because
Paul Konrardy:
[57:34] I love this conversation.
Jenny Evans:
[57:35] Yep.
Susan Evans:
[57:36] Yeah.
Paul Konrardy:
[57:37] We are way over so
Jenny Evans:
[57:38] I need to boogie. I got to get on a call.
Susan Evans:
[57:40] You got to go,
Susan Evans:
[57:40] Go, go, go, go. Bye. Okay.
Jenny Evans:
[57:42] Bye. This was awesome.
Susan Evans:
[57:44] Bye.
[57:45] Before you go, a friendly reminder that the people on this podcast are curious, not certified. Nothing you just heard is professional, legal, financial, or business advice. It was a conversation, a good one, but still just a conversation. And if something they said makes you want to rethink your entire business model, maybe you should sleep on it first and then call someone with a license. The hosts bring the ideas and you bring the judgment. And if it all works out, they'd love to hear about it. If it doesn't, well, then they've never met you. All content is copyright monsters of curiosity and may not be reproduced or distributed without permission.
